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The Heritage Show - Legacy in Motion: Gordon Neale OBE on a Lifetime in Volleyball and Championing Sitting Volleyball
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In this Heritage Show episode, we celebrate the remarkable legacy of Gordon Neale OBE — a true giant of British volleyball and a pioneer of inclusive sport.
Gordon shares how his journey began in the Army, playing volleyball over a net strung between two cars in Greece. From there, he went on to play in London and the National League in Essex before establishing a formal volleyball programme for the Army. He reflects on the challenges he faced embedding the sport into military life and how it developed over time.
We then explore Gordon’s incredible role in bringing sitting volleyball to the UK, sparked by a magazine article that led him to support individuals who wanted to play. A passionate advocate for inclusive sport, Gordon discusses the early barriers he faced, the vital support of the national governing body, and the pride of taking teams to international competitions — including a memorable trip to Las Vegas.
Gordon also shares insights from his time as a sitting volleyball referee, including officiating at two Paralympic Games, as well as his leadership roles across Volleyball England, the British Volleyball Federation, and World ParaVolley.
Celebrating 50 years in the sport, Gordon reflects on receiving his OBE, multiple Hall of Fame inductions, and a lifetime of service to volleyball.
An inspiring conversation with a man who has given so much to the game — you won’t want to miss this one!
Connecting Through Conversation
That Volleyball Guy. Hello, I'm Luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy, and if you love volleyball as much as me, then you're in the right place. That volleyball guy hello and welcome to another episode of that volleyball guy and another episode of the heritage show in partnership with volleyball england. A reminder, then if you're new to the podcast, firstly, welcome, it's great to have you along. Please continue to share this podcast with all of the amazing volleyball community. A reminder that we have the Digging Deeper show, which takes those that are in the sport currently, and we have an hour-long conversation digging deeper, and we've had coaches, players, officials, club managers, my most recent guest, davide Tabeti from the London Lionhearts.
Speaker 1:A really, really interesting conversation who shares his knowledge around, mindset how he took his team from finishing ninth in the Super League to finishing fourth in the Super League and explains why he's stepping down to focus on family. A really, really interesting conversation that you won't want to miss. So go ahead and listen to that if you haven't. But we are here for another episode of the Heritage Show. So the Heritage Show, in partnership with Volleyball England, was set up to celebrate 70 years of the national governing body. We take people that have done and dedicated so much to this sport and we allow them their chance to have their story, share some of the amazing achievements that they've done and their insight into their career and their history within volleyball. And I have a really, really special guest for you on the heritage show. When we started talking about doing the heritage show, this name came up a lot of times from a lot of people that I spoke to and I'm really pleased that I've managed to tie him down to a conversation and I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation.
Speaker 1:So 50 years in British volleyball, starting his career and bringing sitting volleyball to GB in 1986. He's an ex-coach of the GB sitting team. He's officiated numerous world, european and regional sitting and standing volleyball games, a board member of the WOVD until 1996. He was the first international sitting referee in GB. Numerous board positions of British Paralympics, british Volleyball and Volleyball England Instrumental in the GB sitting team. Entry into the 2012 Paralympics Awarded an OBE and a Volleyball England Hall of Famer. I'm really pleased to welcome to the show Gordon Neill, gordon hello.
Speaker 2:Hello Luke, glad to be here.
Speaker 1:That list, Gordon, I could have written probably another two pages of achievements and bullet points. I had to pick the best ones.
Speaker 2:Well, I spent the last day trying to work out the 55 years or 50 years through 16 different countries, all the people that have touched my pathway during my volleyball career. Very difficult.
Speaker 1:Am I right in thinking that somewhere I've read that you're thinking about writing a book, or is that just uh?
Speaker 2:well, I've. I've started writing a book. I've got up to the age of eight years old so far, but unfortunately my mom and dad are no longer with us, and neither are my three brothers, so it's difficult when I've got no one to ask about some things, so I'm just having to do it from memory.
Speaker 1:It's going to take a long time and we were saying, before we press record on this, that we've got an hour a lot to fit in an hour, um, we probably won't even touch half of it, um, a quarter of it, someone who's dedicated so much of your life to um volleyball, so, yeah, it's going to be an interesting conversation. I'm really looking forward to this, like I've said, and um, and firstly, like I said to all my guests, thank you ever so much for giving up your time and sharing with the volleyball community, your, your history it's been a big part of my life awesome.
Speaker 1:So, gordon, talk us through then, if you can, your introduction to volleyball.
Speaker 2:I'm always curious to find out how people find volleyball, so tell us about your early playing days, how you found the sport well, I suppose it started really with a version of volleyball when I was in the army in cyprus, just throwing a net up between two trucks and throwing the ball over without any real rules or real refereeing. So that was the first introduction, but it went on from there to when I become an army recruiter in Epping very much in the Newport at the moment, but in.
Speaker 2:Epping with a team called Headway and I started playing for them with a guy named Vince Krasik who some people will know, who now coaches the Scottish national women's team. So that was my first introduction to real volleyball with proper rules. And it went on from there because I've got the bite and I continue playing at national league level, actually playing in what was then the BBC Sports Town programme in Harlow many, many years ago. And my career carried on still in the Army and I moved to London to look after a TA unit Because at the time I'd also started initiating getting volleyball recognised in the Army as a proper sport, because it was not recognised and it took me years to get it recognised and it was put in originally under the guise of basketball but then a few years later the Army Sports Control Board actually recognised it. So I took the first armour team away in 1976 to the Crown Services, which was then the N2C in Kirkham Prison, and that was the first time an armour team had ever been away in 1976. So that was my first.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Second show, getting that actually introduced to the proper sport, and it went on from there. Because I was based in London, I had to find a club in London. When I came out the army in 86 I went straight into sports management in a place called Eastway Sports Centre, which is where the copper box is now based in London. Straight into sports management in a place called Eastway Sports Centre, which is where the Copper Box is now based in London, and I formed the team Eastway. We had four teams, two men, two women, loads of lovely people, and we played National League there as well, with people like Helen Campbell who went on to be an England player, who played for Britannia under Paul Westhead.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I'm throwing names in because my memory is just going and, going and going. People have touched my life all the way through People like Richard Callaghan, remembering back to the first days with George Borman and Michael McKeever in West Bridgeford when the EVA were based in West Bridgeford. But I got interested. I don't know how it was, oh, I do know how. I saw an advert in the Volleyball Magazine. Some disabled guys had come back from America and seen City Volleyball and wanted to play in this country, but there was nowhere for them to play and they wanted a coach. So I okay, I'll do it. And we set up a team in west bridgeford under the guise of an organization called blasser british there's also a sports association, there's also many in the others it was different categories of disability, like spider bitford and things like that.
Speaker 2:so we set up a team there and we formed the first ever great britain sitting team there and our first tournament was, uh, in a place called stavanger, first international tournament in stavanger, in nor Norway, and I can't even remember I'm 18 years old, I can't remember everything well, gordon, that's how it got going and it was championed by Volleyball England with Richard Calicott and Don Ancy, dan Dingle, bernard Kilkenny people like that who really helped me along the way to transform what was unknown for people with different abilities to play volleyball.
Speaker 1:That's all.
Speaker 2:It is a different ability. It's still the game. We still play over a net, we still play on the court, we still play with a volleyball, but it's just a different ability. So that's how it started.
Speaker 1:And so, like I said at the start, there's loads of questions I want to ask you. So, going back to your playing days then, when you were playing, what position did you play? What was your success like? What was the highest level you played? Tell us more about your playing days. Well, I played national league level.
Speaker 2:Um, I like to think I was a good setter, based on people like richard dobell, who was a good, very good setter. Um, but yeah, I like to think I was a good setter and I played throughout my career, even in the army as a setter, in the army as a setter and for Eastway as a setter, and that's where I finished playing my serious volleyball with Eastway. As I say, I'm 80 years old now. I can get down on the floor, but I can't get up.
Speaker 1:I've got a bit of a theory, which I've shared on this podcast many a time before, that a lot of the coaches that I've spoken to and a lot of the people that have gone on to do big things in the sport have always seemed to be setters. I don't know if that's just you can put me here. Yeah, I don't know the data and the numbers, but I know that a lot of the people I've spoken to as guests on this podcast have either done a stint as a setter or been a setter in their time, and I think it is like you said, that volleyball intelligence.
Speaker 2:They control the game and they have to think ahead. They have to think ahead of the hitters and everyone else.
Speaker 1:So you played playing standing volleyball, playing National League, and you sort of alluded to it a second then. So tell us a little bit more about the time that you spent with the army and setting up the army volleyball that was very difficult.
Speaker 2:I mean because I had to find a team and that was difficult. They're all over the place. So I put an advert in the soldier magazine and around all the services to try and find people and I managed to get together a group of guys who said they'd played volleyball before. Little did I know when we got to the first crown of services tournament before. Little did I know when we got to the first Crown Services tournament that half of them didn't know what a volleyball was. So we got smashed. But that was the start of it. Rf Harris were the team to beat then and it's been a great pleasure to go to Glasgow this year and see the Army team take the Crown Services for the first time Brilliant.
Speaker 1:I bet that was a moment of pride fantastic um.
Speaker 2:Donald deans was the coach. Donald's a great friend of mine. Fantastic job, um.
Speaker 1:So I'm glad someone like that has taken it on, because I've known him from the first day when he used to play with the police I mean, I've coached teams that have played the army teams and the RAF teams and all I know is that the ball never seems to touch the floor because they're everywhere they're fit. The rally's gone forever. So what was your job as the coach? What was the biggest challenge? Coaching the army guys?
Speaker 2:To get players off duty to come and play, especially abroad, when we're going to play in places like Gibraltar or Cyprus getting them off duty. I was very lucky to have a commanding officer. Major Chris Dunphy from the Green Jackets was my commanding officer and I persuaded him to become the first resident of army volleyball, which he did, which gave me a bit of doubt when it said writing letters, can I have so-and-so to come and play?
Speaker 1:and it worked navigating the challenges right, navigating. And that sounds. That sounds like from reading your volleyball career and and talking to you briefly before it sounds like and talking to all the people I've spoken to on the heritage show, it sounds like and talking to all the people I've spoken to on the Heritage Show, it sounds like you've all got something in common, which is this ability to navigate through challenges, not let no stop you, and be quite resilient in what everything you do. Is that thanks to the Army?
Speaker 2:You've got to. I've had that throughout my career. My career spans different sort of parts of my life. I was a chief executive of a sports charity and that was difficult raising money to ensure that we could run competitions there, raising money getting people off. It's all the same. You have to go through brick walls sometimes.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so, before we move into the transition to sitting volleyball, then, who was the? Well, two questions, I guess. Who was the best player that you played with or played against? And I told you I'm putting you on the spot, didn't I?
Speaker 2:And who was the best player that you coached? Well, the best players I coached were two Iranian guys, and there's a long story behind that and the coach is an Iranian coach called Hadi, who's a friend of mine now, anyway. But the two Iranian guys had come with an athletics team to Stoke Manderill for a competition and they approached me I was still in the army at the time. They approached me after the competition and said we'd like to stay in britain, can you help us? I went oh, hang on, I'm in the army, I can't do anything like that. Yeah, I found out a week later they'd run away from the team. The team had gone home. They stayed in this country anyway. So they stayed in this country for three years and during that time I managed to get them to come play with the sitting team GDB sitting team and they were brilliant players because they'd come from the Iranian team, who were the best team in the world. I've been to Iran twice now. Fantastic country, believe it or not, and the players there are fantastic.
Speaker 1:They're just different we'll talk about the sitting stuff, and what about the? And what about you as a player, then? Who was the best player that you got to share the court with?
Speaker 2:well, I think one of the one of the Iranian, iraj, who's now a dentist in Germany, funny enough, just showing their left. But we've had some good players in this country.
Speaker 2:There's still some players around Because of and I'll say it now because of the lack of funding, and I'll say it now because of the lack of funding back in 1994, we were no 1994, six we were denied access to the Paralympic Games by the British Paralympic Association because we weren't deemed a medal potential and they couldn't go. But if you're going to progress in your sport you need challenges. And that would have been a challenge and that would have made the guys improve all the way through and by now you would have had a brilliant team, not saying we haven't got a good team now, because there are some good players coming through. But it's difficult finding those players unless the person has a different ability that fits into the category that's required for playing and sitting in a volleyball. It's hard to find. We are an inclusive sport Sit in volleyball and that's where Volleyball England have got to hold their hand up. They should be proud of what they've done for people with different abilities by including a sit-in volleyball in their programme, including refereeing, coaching, playing, whatever across the board.
Speaker 2:So they should hold their hand up and be very proud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you and so then. So I'm really curious to find and you sort of mentioned it, but give us some more information about your journey from the army and coaching the standing army team to sort of getting involved in sitting. I mentioned at the start that you bought sitting volleyball to this country, so where did that come from? What ignited that passion?
Speaker 2:Well, I was trying to mention it, I saw an advert in the Volleyball Magazine where these guys had said they wanted to play sitting volleyball because they'd seen it in America and they wanted a coach. I was the coach. So I said, ok, I'll take it on. I was still in the army but said okay, I'll take it on. I was still in the army but I thought I'll do it, why not? So I took it on and took these guys to Sutton, coldfield, st George's Barracks where the Blasser trained every week yeah, every week, one week every month. Took them there and we started forming the actual sitting team, trying to get more players in with the right ability to play, finding volleyball players who maybe had an injury or felt they couldn't play volleyball anymore. But hang on, guys, we're a fully inclusive sport. Now we're going to play volleyball, it's a great way to keep yourself involved.
Speaker 2:Whether you want to be a coach, whether you want to be a referee or a player, whatever, there's places for all of you.
Speaker 1:And what was it then about sitting that made you think this is where I want to dedicate more of my time to. What was it about sitting volleyball that got you more than standing volleyball?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Honestly, I can't answer that question. When I came out of the army I went into sports management at the Eastway Sports Centre where I became assistant manager and part of my role was given was looking after people with different abilities that come to the sports center so they could access the sports center and access the facility and access the sports that we've done there. So, and it's quite funny, some of these guys come along and I always remember setting the fire alarm off. Once, just like I'm running out with a wheelchair, I I said, well, where's the guy? Oh, he's in the shower. I said, well, how does he get out? He's got the wheelchair back, for God's sake. And it was.
Speaker 2:I think it was a mindset of trying to educate people about different abilities. You know they're not different, they have a different ability but they still are able to do things. You've just got to. Your mindset's got to change as well and it was that one thing that got me into that. And, of course, when I left, when I threw out the army, I went into disabled sport anyway and that took over my life. So I've won major championships in swimming and athletics and snooker and loads of things.
Speaker 1:Was there a crossover then with your time in the army and getting maybe injured troops, injured personnel, playing sport again? Or was it just?
Speaker 2:right. I did have a DVT in one of my legs through a volleyball injury playing standing volleyball and I went to one of the rehabilitation centres and it was there that I started playing on the floor and I thought well, hang on, you can still throw a ball around and hit a ball and dig a ball. Why can't we play a game sitting volleyball? It was just a transition to take that game from standing to playing on the floor but maintain it as a game.
Speaker 1:And lovely that you mentioned that, because I wanted to ask you really about the differences between. So I've given sitting volleyball a go. I'm very lucky that down near me I've got the brilliant Richard Osborne so he's dragged me along to a few sitting sessions and I've loved it. I've absolutely loved it, but it is for me it's a complete difference. The speed of the game is insane. It's so much quicker than standing volleyball.
Speaker 2:So perhaps for those One of the things as a coach. When I was coaching, I always used to get my players sitting on the floor to volley, because it was the accuracy. They had to have to make sure that volley went to the right place because moving around you. As you're aware, moving around the floor is difficult yeah, I used to.
Speaker 1:The few times I've done it, I know that the next day I can't move, my neck and my arms are killing me, um, but so it's. It's. So, I guess, for the listeners that are listening to this podcast who have never, maybe even considered sitting volleyball, give us the sales pitch. Tell us the best bits about sitting volleyball and what makes it the sport it is it's still volleyball.
Speaker 2:You're not going away from the game. If you're a volleyball player, it's still volleyball and it's still a team game. And you sit on the floor and play with these guys and you're amazed at their ability, the speed they can move around the court. If you watch some of the top games in the Paralympics I mean I've refereed at Paralympics Amazing, some of them can move around so fast and their recovery from balls that are hit just as hard over the net even though the net's not that high.
Speaker 1:And what's the key to being a good sitting volleyball player, then as a coach? What's the key to a good, good sitting volleyball player, then as a coach? What's the key to a good sitting volleyball athlete?
Speaker 2:Having one leg.
Speaker 1:Go on.
Speaker 2:Sorry, it's about balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you think about it, some of my good players who were double MDTs but because they had no legs their balance was a bit of a problem when moving forwards or backwards, but if you've got one leg it stabilises you to a certain extent and you can move around. A bit of a problem when moving forwards or backwards, but if you've got one leg it stabilizes you to a certain extent and you can move around a bit better yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1:I remember a chat, um that we played with and I've had a few stints with sitting volleyball over the years and I remember playing in a sort of uh, taster competition and I remember a gentleman, double amputee, said to me having legs in this sport is a hindrance.
Speaker 1:They get in the way, um, especially at the net right well, they've changed that rule now, but yes, it used to be yeah, yeah, no, but I I cannot believe and like, like I said, if you're listening to this podcast and never given sitting volleyball go, you need to go and head over to volleyball England's website, have a look where your nearest club is. There needs to be more clubs and we'll come on to this bit later in the conversation.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's a great sport, very quick and I think as a coach of a standing team as well, there's so many learnings and opportunities in playing both right sitting and standing.
Speaker 2:Well, I did have a conversation with someone from Volleyball England about ensuring that components of sitting volleyball were always included in coaching programmes, and if you want club mark, you've got to prove that somewhere in your programme you are developing a sitting strain and again, I'm not a sitting expert I'm not, you know but I know that the sitting community in this country are really supportive of other people um playing and they want more people to play.
Speaker 1:So you know, like you shouldn't let that hold you back from trying sitting volleyball right.
Speaker 2:Whether you're able-bodied, you have a disability, like you've mentioned, it's a very inclusive sport I think one of the one of the holding things originally was the equipment having the right posts and the right net. But if, if the volleyball post manufacturers got their head around it, they could develop a post where the net holding has come all the way down, further than what they do at the moment, so you wouldn't have to worry about the height of the net. I developed the first sitting post in this country as well, believe it or not, height of the net particularly. I developed the first sitting post in this country as well, believe or not but because sports centers were reluctant to put holes in the floor.
Speaker 1:That was a money problem so once again, you're up against a money problem well, it ties me nicely into the next section of tell us about the early challenge and I'm sure there are loads right, but talk to us about the early challenges you face, bringing a new sport to this country well, some of it's obviously money.
Speaker 2:I mean, if we wanted to take teams away as a gb team, this country should be proud of gb team going representing them. But you try and find the money for it. I mean richard probably told you on his podcast trying to get the 2012 team to london getting the money for that was a major fight. I mean I remember sitting down in birmingham with him, with the sports council, trying to say we need the money, we've got to have the money, otherwise don't't have representation yeah and what do we look like as a country we don't have to represent?
Speaker 1:yeah, my my view only so I'll own my view is that obviously I'm not a sports funding expert. I know you've got a lot of experience in it, gordon, but you've mentioned earlier and from the other people that I've spoken to, it's very much about the sports that are likely to medal, which is a shame, because you know you take a sport like cycling or swimming, there's loads of medals up for grabs on that, but in a sitting volleyball tournament or a standing volleyball competition, you're really playing for one team medal, aren't you?
Speaker 2:so yeah, you talk about individuals versus your team, which is another problem yeah and it is very difficult to convince people, but people, I think, higher up in the sports council should look at the development of team games, not the development of individuals, which is slightly easier to develop. A team needs time, a lot of time, what it does with, but a team does a lot more because they've got to come together as a team. I can quote instances where teams in this country have been given funding over a 12-year cycle for Paralympics and they haven't meddled at all, but it continues to be funded, whereas sitting volleyball, which teams fought, was given one chance one chance 2012. Then the money stopped. How can you develop a team?
Speaker 1:really it's sad, isn't it? And it's sad, and, and again, not my naivety. So please, um, yeah, please, let me know. But I'm guessing, with the sitting programs and there's a lot of other maybe hidden costs that people don't see, the costs you know increased for people traveling with disabilities and transport and hotel rooms is that a challenge that the sitting volleyball community faces?
Speaker 2:well, of course you look at people with different abilities. Some are in wheelchairs, all right. You got transport wheelchairs on aircraft. That costs there's a hell of a lot of cost. Transportation is a major problem. Hotels are a major problem unless they're accessible. Even transport between facilities, unless the the transportation is accessible, you've got a major problem. We were lucky in london, we were lucky in atlanta. We were lucky in London. We were lucky in Atlanta. We were lucky in Barcelona. The transport was good. They busted it lower down, so it was okay. But most people with disabilities will cope with things like that anyway. They will get around them. They're not barriers, they will overcome them.
Speaker 1:And before we move on, then, to talking about the big part of this conversation, which is about all of your leadership roles in different governing bodies and organisations. World Power Volleyball Just tell us a little bit about your successes as a sitting coach. Have you got a particular team or event as a coach of a sitting team where you're really you know you look back with fond memories, or has it all just been great?
Speaker 2:well, I can go back to the world championships in las vegas, where we have both the sitting and the standing team that went away to las vegas and we were put up in the hilton in las vegas and they transformed the the massive ballroom in the Hilton into a sitting court and a standing court, which was brilliant. And I always remember the German team because we were in Las Vegas. They were confined to barracks because half the time they were spending on the slot machines and they weren't training. Half the time they were spending on the slot machines and they were training. And the Iranian team turned up to pay for the tournament with a metal suitcase full of money. Really Crazy. It was a brilliant tournament. You've got to write that we had another set-up called Dave McRae, who's now a transport manager in Canada, who won best setter of the tournament.
Speaker 1:He was brilliant Scottish lad I was going to say you have to write that book, gordon. Like some of these stories, they need to be put into a book.
Speaker 2:Well, I've got loads.
Speaker 1:I bet you have.
Speaker 2:Going back to the army time, I remember taking the army team away to a tournament in eindhoven in holland and I had two gherkas in my team and they'd forgotten their passports. Now the trouble. I had to try and convince the border control to let these two gherkas through, saying they're soldiers, they're part of my team. God, god, yeah, so before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like we said you mentioned at the time when you were coaching, you were also involved in refereeing and officiating sitting volleyball. I loved it. I read that you've officiated at two Paralympics, I think Barcelona 1992 and London in 1996.
Speaker 2:Yeah, funny story, barcelona. I was a member of the WLVD board and we had a board meeting and I was due to referee and I suddenly looked at me watch and I thought, christ, I'm refereeing Egypt-USA at the minute. So I rushed out on the call, got to the stand, the stand, looked down and realized I've got my shoes on. Lucky enough I have white socks on.
Speaker 1:so they did that and you couldn't see them behind the stand anyway oh yeah and you so, you so you've officiated at two paralympics and some world championships and lots of events. So tell us the difference between because obviously you've done both. You've officiated standing volleyball as well. What's the big? Obviously there's lots of differences in the game, but from an officiating perspective, what's the big difference between standing and sitting? Speed, yeah.
Speaker 2:Speed and distance, I mean because you've got to be so. You're so close to the court and so close to how quick it is. There Standing I always I loved refereeing standing. I loved it throughout my career and I refereed many, many, many good games. But, yeah, the sitting game was so quick and you had to watch for lifting where players off the floor.
Speaker 1:but that's the main thing the speed between you and the players it's really rare to find um and I'm not sure now on the stats or if there are, but from my perspective, in my opinion, it's rare to find officials that are really good at both. I think it's a different skill set. I think I know I can think of a few that are officiating at the moment that do both, but do you think it's you can do both or do you think you need to specialize in one?
Speaker 2:oh no, I think you can do both. It's just the mindset again and what about?
Speaker 1:what about the mindset that made you so successful?
Speaker 2:I think you've just got to realise the differences of the players on court and their feelings as well. I always remember refereeing Speedwell, Barry Clark and the Pinkock brothers. I think Bernie Kilkenny once told me I gained the fastest red card of any referee ever and that was to Barry Clark at a speedball game.
Speaker 1:What did he do?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think he swore at me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But as a soldier I'm not taking that.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to see. I love the mindset and psychology piece, especially around officiating right and it's you know, as a coach of a volleyball team as well. You can, I think, officials and we've spoken to many officials on this podcast they need to have that presence. They need to have that, that connection with the players that you're not there to spot fault and make silly decisions to make you look good. You're there to allow the game to play.
Speaker 2:You've got to interact with the players yeah, you're the most part of the game. You're part of the game.
Speaker 1:You're not against them yeah, you're absolutely not there to to make those silly calls to get you noticed, right? I always say as a player, as an ex-player and a coach and I always say if a referee's had a good game, you know they've had a good game because you didn't notice they were there that's right and I think, and I'll always, I'll always um thank you and give feedback to official, if I think you know what you know didn't do anything controversial. There was no challenging discussion.
Speaker 2:Decisions, you made decisions, you, you, yes, you stuck to it and that's all you want as a player and you've got to admit it as well, because if you make a mistake yeah, referees make mistakes they're not infallible yeah, I am.
Speaker 1:I used to referee football as well and I got quite high. I got quite high up in the football refereeing and I remember a mentor of mine once said when you make a bad decision, when you make the wrong decision as in you give a throw into the wrong team the best thing you can do is, as you're running backwards, just say to the player that's having to get you. God, I got that wrong, didn't I? Because they'll recognize that you're human, you interact with them. Yeah so, um, official officiating at two paralympics, barcelona and atlanta, um, I believe again wanted to talk to you again because it's not an area of my expertise, but sitting volleyball introduced into the paralyalympics in 1980, I believe, for the men and only 2004. Is that right for the women?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right 2004. There's always a worry that sitting volleyball might be a sport that the Paralympics say that's not a sport we want anymore, but we're one of the top sports in the world, believe it or not.
Speaker 1:sitting volleyball and who are the if you're, if you're not, if you're not sort of part of the sitting world? Who are the who who have been the sort of consistently high performers when it comes to teams at the paralympics over the last sort of 20?
Speaker 2:years. Iran, yeah, iran, yeah Iran. Bosnia and Herzegovina in Europe, they're the two main ones.
Speaker 1:And what is it about those two teams? That means that they're going to make the world?
Speaker 2:I don't know, because when I first come on board, it was the Netherlands. They were the top team, and they were for a while. Then the Iranians come on the scene, and that was it were for a while. Then the Iranians come on the scene and that was it. They just changed everything completely. They had a different mindset for the game. Their coach, Hadi, is fantastic. I don't know what he does, but he's got it right.
Speaker 1:I've seen highlights of the game and I remember seeing the speed of it at the Paralympics. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:I've got to mention here Matt Rogers. You know, matt? Yeah, he's done fantastic with Volley Fries.
Speaker 1:Tell us, tell those that don't know Matt and what he does, maybe more about what he's done.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it goes back to a long time, to when Matt was originally employed by Volleyball England. I remember me and Richard sat on the panel again when we employed him and we had the idea about doing something constructive to teach other people. And Matt's taken it beyond that with Volleyside. He's done a brilliant job, has taken it beyond that with volley side he's done a brilliant job. And if more teams, more teams around the country, just took an opportunity to take that and look at it, they'd see how easy it is. Well, it's not easy, but it's not hard to set up a certain team. Some standing players enjoy the game anyway.
Speaker 1:And we've had you know. I know that Richard Doville played for the GB team at the London 2012.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he captained it. That was a sad loss when he stopped.
Speaker 1:And I'm just thinking now that I've had the discussion with you and Richard, I'm thinking, Matt, you had an interview panel then, didn't you? Matt Rogers had a tough interview panel on YouTube, but you've obviously picked someone who's gone on to do great things.
Speaker 2:I'm a novice guy really.
Speaker 1:So, Gordon, let's talk about then. Like I said at the introductions, you've had many a role in governance, disabled sport, different associations. Tell us about your roles within management and leadership positions for world power volleyball, volleyball england british volleyball where do you want to start?
Speaker 2:well, um, it was back in barcelona. Really I was heavily involved as an official um because I'd done the course in israel with a guy named graham knight, I believe no longer around. He was a a signal on referee who refereed national league in this country at one time. Really nice guy and we've done a course in israel. And we went to barcelona and I got involved in a, a board meeting in barcelona and they were looking for someone to do marketing. So I said, okay, I'll do it.
Speaker 2:So, I took that role on and then the next time was one of the world championships I think it might have been Las Vegas. They promoted me to vice president, which I regret not carrying on. But there you go. That's another story. But people like Peter Jung, who's a Dutchman, and Gabriel O'Tan, who's in Israel, a referee, and Dennis I can't mention Dennis O'Brieley as well Dennis has done a fine job in this country. I always remember the first sitting volleyball referees course. Fine job in this country. I always remember the first sitting volleyball referees course I ran in this country, in London, many, many years ago, where Dennis was on there. Who else was on there? Oh my God, god, my mind's going.
Speaker 1:Kling.
Speaker 2:It's getting late, my mind's going, but I had a few players on there. Oh, steve Walton was on there, dennis Joe Campbell from America, bernie Kilkenny helped me run it and Gabby Lothian and that was the first ever course. I remember we brought some players in from abroad to show the demonstrations, so you learn to referee properly, and one of them was a player from Slovakia, a single-day standing player, a amputeee, and during the time at the competition I managed to find him a new leg.
Speaker 2:We were at a place in London there was a specialist manufacturer of prosthetics and I persuaded the guy there to make him a new leg and I always remember driving him back to the airport with him sitting in the back of there with his new leg wrapped up in brown paper and I go wow.
Speaker 1:It's worth the trip. Yeah, so you've been involved in. Let's talk a little bit more about your role. So you mentioned then about marketing, but you've been involved in. Let's talk a little bit more about your roles. You mentioned then about marketing. Um, but you've been part of and for maybe the listeners that don't know the history of governance of in sitting volleyball, you've been part of what was the iso well, he started off as an isod.
Speaker 2:Yeah, international sports organization with people with disabilities, international Sports Organisation for People with Disabilities. Then it went to WOVD, world Organisation for Fully Disabled. Now it's World Paravoli.
Speaker 1:He's pointing at his shirt For those that listen to the podcast. He's pointing to his shirt with the World Paravoli logo on it.
Speaker 2:So it's changed names three or four times For all the right reasons, and they've progressed as well. Their presence has just changed recently as well, from Barry Kuzner, who's Australian now, to a German guy, jürgen Schwab, great player, played for the German team for many years. He made a good president. So, yeah, I enjoyed being. I was one of the top referees. But now as you get older, you get forgotten a bit. So I don't do as much now as I'd like to do. But then it's traveling with a family.
Speaker 1:It's difficult and then and then you've also been involved in the british paralympic association.
Speaker 2:I was on the on the paralympic committee for a while. Yeah, basically because of the city volleyball side, and that was an organization that met every so often just to discuss and plan for the next Paralympics and appoint team managers and things and you've also had numerous roles for Volleyball England over the years, so talk us through a little bit.
Speaker 2:Well, I sat on the foundation board for a while, but then it was travelling commitments that let me down, because I'm way up north and that's one of my bugbears is everything's down south. Yeah, they're now going to Loughborough. Okay, that's fine, but it's miles away from me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's central to the country when you look at it on a map. But if you're right up north or if you're, like me, right down south, we've got it tough, haven't we?
Speaker 2:Well, I always remember from my playing days having trouble to double-headers, you know, getting a minivan and travelling to Liverpool for two games, being absolutely knackered and having to drive back again.
Speaker 1:And I'm right in thinking because I'm part of the Volleyball England commentary team did I see you at the Cup Finals this year?
Speaker 2:Yes, I was yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I thought you were there. So how was that? Was that your first time watching the Super League sort of stuff for a while?
Speaker 2:No, I try and get to something when I can. I know Dave Rogers very well yeah, because Dave does the Paralympics in Paris. So, yeah, it's nice to see the way the game developed on that side as well. Having decent commentary and, you know, sort of bit of background music, which is the, as you open things, makes it more professional.
Speaker 1:I believe you've done a stint in commentary as well, haven't you? Didn't you do some commentary back?
Speaker 2:I've done commentary for 2012. Yeah, I enjoyed that Good fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Best seat in the house.
Speaker 1:That's the best bit right. You get the best seat in the house.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting from a commentary perspective, when you've been a coach and a player, to then have that sort of analytical brain to look over what's going on and you can normally I don't know if it's the same for you, but especially with the standing stuff because of my experience I can normally tell what's about to happen. You can sort of like you know, you can see that the coach is going to take a timeout or but it's conveying that to an audience as well, making that sort of understandable to an audience.
Speaker 2:He's got a very fast arm action. Oh yeah, of course he has. He's got the ball.
Speaker 1:I could talk to you for absolute hours about all of your experiences, but I wanted to sort of as we come towards the end of this conversation I know 45 minutes already but tell us a little bit more about you know, because I think it would be safe to say that the sitting game has sort of gone through peaks and troughs and at the moment you know, with participation levels, where do you think the sport's heading? What's the biggest challenges to the sport as we are now?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the biggest challenge and it always has been is classification.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Getting people classified to play the sport because classification rules are so stringent about who can and who can't play whatever sport you want to do in the Paralympics, it's very difficult. We've got to ensure that we can and we did bring out a leaflet some years ago that identified the classification which made it easier for people to understand. Well, I've got this problem, I can get involved. It's also approaching the medical fraternity physios and people like that to say come and help us. You can identify these people, you work with them all the time. There might be a player who's had a really serious leg injury, like I had with my ankle years ago, that will never play standing again, or their knee they won't play standing again. I mean Richard Darbell, that's how he got in because of his knee problem. It managed to classify him. You asked John Wall about classification.
Speaker 2:You know, john. Yeah, yeah yeah, ask him about classification. I'll tell you a story about him. In Poland, I was on the classification panel and they were going to classify him out, and I managed to convince him. No, no, look at this, look at that. The movement there, movement there, classification problem yeah.
Speaker 1:So again, for those that are new to sitting volleyball, it's probably something you haven't even thought about, right, like the whole barriers when it comes to classification. It sounds like once people get to the sport and find it, it's addictive, like volleyball, like all forms of beach standing sitting right. Once you find the sport it's an addictive sport.
Speaker 2:It's getting people, like you say, to the sport in the first place, attracting them to play, working with the healthcare professionals, the medical teams to promote, and I guess I guess gordon that in order to do that there's got to be clubs offering sitting volleyball for them to go to one of the things I'd like to do is take a city volleyball exhibition game to the crown services next year, which are going to be based in loughborough next year, which are going to be based in Loughborough because the RAF are hosting it and the Army now have taken over Loughborough as their base as well. So if we can get a demonstration game there because where will you get people who've had injuries that might stop them playing standing volleyball? In the services, in the police, the police supply gates, prison, prison servicing and the army, navy, air force that's where you get them.
Speaker 1:that's the perfect opportunity to showcase the sport great idea, a really great idea, and I think like we've all said that again, so I don't know where it's going to be taken off. Yeah, well, it's about visibility, isn't it Like with all sports, making the sport visible, letting people know it's there, yeah, so, gordon, let's finish this conversation by two big things being awarded your OBE and becoming a Volleyball England Hall of Famer and, I believe, recognised by the World Paravolleyball Association as well.
Speaker 2:So tell us more about those things. Well, the OBE came when I was working for Disability Sport and that was out of the blue. That was. I took my mum along and my brother along and my wife along. Magical day, really magical. Was it the Queen? Yeah, the Queen. Very proud WVD. I'm now an honorary life member, which I won't go into, and with Volleyball England, the Hall of Fame, that came out of the blue as well. Nice to be recognised. It's always nice to be recognised.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and you know, and I know it's a part of the sport that we don't like to do, but if it wasn't for you introducing sitting volleyball to this country, then so many people, so many people wouldn't be playing the sport and having the yeah, and through all, all levels of volleyball, through all different variations of it sitting what, standing um beach, what. What we have to say as a community is volleyball gives those that play it so much more than just volleyball. Right, friendship, relationships, memories, stories all for all yeah once again.
Speaker 2:Volleyball should hold their hand up.
Speaker 1:That really good yeah, so I'm gonna wrap up the conversation then, like I do with all of our heritage show um guests, and, like I said, I can't believe we've nearly we've been talking nearly an hour already. Um, I want to just stay on and pick your brains about lots of things, um, but two final questions then from me. So what and I think we might have talked about it but what's been your proudest moment? Looking back on your career and all the things you've done, what's been your proudest moment?
Speaker 2:Marrying my wife oh.
Speaker 1:Is she listening?
Speaker 2:No, she's in the front room watching TV.
Speaker 1:Something in that right is you have to have the support from your your loved ones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is amazing because now I'm heavily involved with, uh, the royal british region. So, come poppy week, which is coming up quite soon, um, I'm heavily involved with that and I run a big. I run an event with a rugby club up here called the poppy sword challenge, which are rugby, two rugby games over one day, and they play for sword.
Speaker 1:So that's what I'm doing now wow, so your wife's always been there, always been always supportive.
Speaker 2:Listen if I could change the last three years of my life.
Speaker 1:I've had two major heart operations and a stroke and she'd been there all the time throughout and the family got amazing family up here and they've it sounds like, and I know I know how important that is for all of the successes you've had in sport over your and not just volleyball. Right, you mentioned there rugby and other disabled sports, and we haven't even touched upon lots of the other amazing work you've done in your roles and positions. But going back to the question, in terms of your volleyball career, where do you what's been your proudest moment?
Speaker 2:I think one of them must be getting Volleyball England to change the name of the City Volleyball Grand Prix Cup to the Ken Edwards Trophy, because Ken did a lot of work and it was really much for them to do that. So yeah, that was quite nice. I think refereeing at the Paralympics was amazing. Being awarded the OBE and the World Paralympic Honorary Life Member and Volleyball England Hall of Fame those three things are fantastic. Makes an old man really proud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and very rightly and well-deserved from all that you've done. So final question then Gordon, you're ready for it. What would you if you had a magic wand? And I ask this to all of our Heritage show guests if you had a magic wand, money was no option what would you do to improve or fix the sport?
Speaker 2:If money was no option.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or if there were no barriers. If you could do anything to improve and probably let's talk sitting volleyball if you could do anything to improve sitting volleyball in this country, what would you do if you had a magic wand?
Speaker 2:I'd improve the Grand Prix so it was bigger, involving Scotland, wales and Northern Ireland. I'd ensure that Volleyball England made a component in each of the refereeing coaching awards and the club awards must include sitting volleyball a component of sitting volleyball.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'd speak to the volleyball equipment people about posts, about decent posts and floor. Floor is a major problem because it's so big. There must be a better way of manufacturing a floor that is easier to roll down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, yeah, I never even thought to consider that. But yeah, you're right, it's a huge yeah, and the transportation of that and storage of it and all those things, yeah you.
Speaker 2:If you look at all the carpet companies that do lino and things like that, there must be a way of making a very light floor that would just be rolled out. That's stuff for d-shift, or send me a d-shift or any floor yeah, really good point.
Speaker 1:There we go. You've heard it and your point around equipment is huge in all aspects of the sport, right, and the rising costs of it. But I think some great ideas, you know, and this is why it's about having a show, but to listen to the people who have done so much. So, gordon, final, I'm going to give you a final word, anything you want to say before we wrap up this conversation well, thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:I hope people watch it and take note of some of the things that we said.
Speaker 1:I know they will. Um, I know I'm going to get lots of comments and lovely feedback. So, gordon, from me and from all of the volleyball community and for all of the people that you've um shared sitting volleyball with in this country, and for everything you've done throughout your amazing career, which we haven't even touched upon in this episode um, I want to say a huge, huge yeah. He's showing me all of his notes now and then we haven't even talked about half the people you wanted to um, but from me and from all the volleyball england community and from everybody in the sitting community, a huge, huge thank you for everything you've done and continue to do, because you are still involved thank you very much, cheers luke so, guys, that was gordon nil on the heritage show.
Speaker 1:Um, wow, I don't know what else to say. I always feel slightly speechless after I record these episodes and always finish these episodes with a huge smile on my face because it brings me so much joy.
Speaker 2:It's the reason why, if you see Richard Osborne soon, tell him he doesn't give up. He doesn't give up.
Speaker 1:No, he absolutely doesn't give up. We't give up. No, he absolutely doesn't give up. We're working closely together in Hampshire on sitting volleyball. So yes, so no, absolutely, gordon, you are a true legend and thank you for everything you've done so for me. Luke Wilkes, the host of that volleyball guy, whatever you're doing, remember, keep playing, keep supporting, but, most importantly, keep that volleyball spirit alive. I'm Luke Wiltshire.
Speaker 2:You'll see me around.
Speaker 1:I will see you around, Gordon. I'm Luke Wiltshire, the host of that Volleyball Guy. Thank you for listening that Volleyball Guy.
