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Digging Deeper: Rajinder Singh on Diversity, Inclusion, and Creating Belonging in Volleyball
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As part of Inclusion Week, this special episode of Digging Deeper hears from a true volleyball pioneer — someone championing parts of our sport that too often don’t get a voice.
Rajinder Singh shares reflections from his 40+ years in volleyball, beginning with his early days in Bedford, watching his parents and uncles play for their local community team, before going on to compete across the London leagues. A self-confessed volleyball addict, Rajinder threw himself into the game with passion and persistence.
In this episode, Rajinder opens up about deeply personal experiences of both direct and indirect discrimination — how he navigated those challenges, grew stronger, and turned them into fuel for his mission of championing inclusion within volleyball, particularly through his work with GNG Bedford.
He also offers practical advice for clubs: why they should reflect the demographics of their communities, how to celebrate diversity meaningfully, and the small but powerful changes that can make everyone feel welcome in our sport.
A true legend, an inspiration, and a story you won’t want to miss.
Connecting Through Conversation
That Volleyball Guy Hello, I'm Luke Wiltshire, host of that Volleyball Guy, and if you love volleyball as much as me, then you're in the right place. That volleyball guy hello and welcome to another episode of that volleyball guy in partnership with Volleyball England, and this is another episode of our Digging Deeper show, where we get to speak to people that are active in the volleyball community and have given so much to our sport and give their time and have their time now to tell us more about all of the amazing work they do. I've had some amazing guests on the Digging Deeper show, guests such as Sam Shenton, frida Bussey you can go back now and listen to all those conversations wherever you get your podcasts from, but I have got an absolutely great conversation for you on today's episode of Digging Deeper. It's actually in partnership with Volleyball England this week celebrating National Inclusion Week, and to find out more about National Inclusion Week and all of the initiatives that Volleyball England are doing as part of the week, head over to the Volleyball England website, where you'll find a full breakdown of all of the things going on this week.
Speaker 1:But now is the time to introduce my very, very special guest, and can I just say, before we have this conversation, that I've had the privilege of having a couple of conversations with this man already and he has got enough stories to write a very good book. And'm sure we won't get on to half of the stories in the show tonight, but I know that you are in for a treat a really different perspective on volleyball and someone who has just given so much to his community. So then, my guest celebrating 50 plus years in volleyball, a volleyballer who has really championed and represented a rarely-talking and spoken-about community within volleyball. A community leader he's been playing the sport since he could walk, active in the London leagues, now involved in coaching GNG Bedford, but someone who has given so much of his time. But someone who has given so much of his time Also the founder and manager of SGSS Southall Volleyball Club, which we're going to come on to talk about. I'm really honoured and pleased to welcome Rajinder Singh to the show.
Speaker 2:Rajinder hello. Hello, Luke, Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
Speaker 1:There's so many points, there's so many other things you do. I couldn't choose which points to do. When you sent me over your volleyball CV, I was like crikey, where am I going to start? Look at all those things this amazing man has done. So, yeah, let's crack on with this conversation, because I've got a feeling we're going to need every single minute we've got.
Speaker 2:Wonderful Thank you.
Speaker 1:So, Rajinder, then talk to us. Let's talk to us about how you started playing volleyball and tell us about your playing days.
Speaker 2:So volleyball was. It was something that my family were involved in, my dad was involved in so, and it was so part of our life as a kid and there was volleyballs around the house. So when I grew up, I just ended up with a volleyball and joining my dad and going to his training and obviously, as soon as I could actually dig, I was messing around with the ball and, you know, training in the corner of the court. So since, since I can remember, I've had a volleyball near me and that volleyball bag that's always been in the back of my dad's car. It just sort of stayed with me since.
Speaker 1:And you've mentioned it was a real family affair. So tell us more about family days at volleyball.
Speaker 2:It was. It sounds quite surprising that for the teams that played against gng bedford, I mean, who had been around um for that sort of period, um, so I I'm from um, uh, an immigrant background. I'm a second generation, uh, british indian. So when my father and his brothers and like like-minded people, they basically went to the park and they thought we should do something before we go to the pub, basically. So they, they ended up playing volleyball and they, they, they laugh about how they were absolutely useless at volleyball but they knew how to play just a little bit and they started playing in the park. They really got into it, um, and it just became. It was just such an amazing game that they had so much fun, such a banter. And then they went to the pub and they had quite hard physical jobs. So it was kind of part of the, the culture at the time of them, kind of physical job go to the park, meet your friends, have a, have um, have a great sport and then and then a few drinks and laughs afterwards that's just.
Speaker 1:You know every what I love about all sport, right, it's not just about the sport, it's have a great sport and then a few drinks and laughs afterwards. That's just. You know every what I love about all sport, right, it's not just about the sport, it's all the things I know. We're going to go on to talking about all your connections and community work that you do, but, yeah, great to hear that you know your experience is the same as most of us in terms of sport gives us. You know so much more than just the actual game or the training. Absolutely. You know so much more than just the actual game or the training. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, you started playing, I believe, around the age of five, six, so I, I still, I still. So we I mean very different cultures then. So we were, um, you know, indian, an indian community group, and so it's not just my dad, my dad's brothers and my cousins were playing and people that we knew. So the community was quite sort of inclusive in itself and that was your circle, so where your parents went and your uncle, um, when you went along anyway as a kid, it just you went there. So it was sort of less of a time when you know, there was iphones and you could go and talk to people on social media.
Speaker 2:So the, the children went along with the parents and we just ended up in school halls, um, for two evenings every every week and and whilst our parents and uncles played volleyball, we were sort of left on the side with with volleyball.
Speaker 2:So we just started playing volleyball, um and um, and it was fun.
Speaker 2:It was really good because we met our family, we met other people's children, so there's a group of kids playing and there was adults, so elders obviously wanted to play at high level, um, and, you know, smash the ball really hard, which all loved doing that, um, so we, we got on and it was kind of, um, you know there's a bit of. There was a warm-up in every volleyball session, so we joined the warm-up because we could. We could run around the court, you know, following up our uncles and you know, try to keep me up with them. So we did all the warm-up with the team and then we would go to the side and do a few digs against the wall and the team would start warming up and doing their sort of more sort of know, hitting at four, outside hitting and stuff. Um, and I just got more as I got taller and bigger and I just got more and more involved in the team and so this group of kids basically formed the second team, not the main team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, and that's how I kind of got into it and were they all sort of kids of family and friends and um other relatives, all about the same age?
Speaker 2:it was so it yeah. So my dad had two brothers, so basically my grandfather and another grandfather. They both had three or four sons, so that was the core of the team, but we also had other people. So it was, yeah, it was kind of, you know, because people spoke Punjabi, our mother tongue, and English and we had lots in common, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So you know the struggles at school and the fact that we weren't white kids. So the struggles at schools were the same and we met each other socially anyway. So we'd meet at functions, we'd meet at weddings and we'd meet anyway. So we knew each other, we had an understanding and we did all the kind of crazy things. So I still remember climbing the roof of the changing room building whilst my dad was, uh, playing inside and don't tell my dad this, but I drove his car once when I was big enough, just around the car park, you know, and I never told him and, um, so I did all the teenage things that you do, yeah, um, I kind of connected around them, being so focused on playing at.
Speaker 2:So we, um, my parents, they knew the caretaker and they'll give a probably shouldn't really say this, but they gave the caretaker a bottle of whiskey every christmas, so he used to give us a bit of extra time in the hall. Yeah, so we went to the school hall. So you know school's closed, it's just a sports hall. Um, it was in a pretty poor condition, but we didn't care um, the shower's just about worked, um, but it was. It was a brand, it was a brilliant training facility and and so I used to walk around the school. Um, I won't I can name the school, but it would be probably might not be a good idea, but I walked around the school grounds outside, obviously, and so it was kind of it was a whole experience. Um, and the volleyball was just kind of the cherry on the top when we started playing sounds great those evenings, right, sound great.
Speaker 1:They're making me remember, actually, of when I was a young boy going to watch my dad play five-a-side football, um, and doing similar things of messing around in sports. So I think all kids have had that experience of going along watching parents play a sport and actually ended up in mischief. I told you, you had enough stories to write a book, didn't I?
Speaker 1:my dad's not gonna be happy when he finds out you mentioned, and we've had a few, a few conversations about this already. So tell us a bit more about the style of volleyball then, because you've said to me a few times, it's different. So tell us about the style of volleyball that you were playing.
Speaker 2:Wow, the style. Thank you, luke. The style was, first of all I need to kind of explain that so the style of volleyball that the Punjabis play is kind of super intense and I've seen it in Europe as well. I've seen it in sort of Kurdish, turkish communities and Polish as well Really intense, like on court very, very competitive, off court very friendly. So the team was so attack focused. I mean now as a coach I think it was actually ridiculous, but then that was the way it was always outside ball. But you get your strongest guy on the outside, give him a big set and he would beat the block and and middle was sort of an optional, at reverse was an optional. So it was so attack focused, um, and you know we did lots of drills and other training, but the thing that really stood out was when we entered the league.
Speaker 2:We played in the Bedfordshire League continuously and also nationally, but when we went as a group to other venues, that's when you really notice a difference in style of volleyball. So ours was about training, warming up, really going for it and really intense on court and celebrating the win. Really going for it and really intense on call and celebrating the, the win, um, and, but when we went to like places like um, raf chicks hands, which is a us military base in bedfordshire, we went there and there was a military with guns and pointing at us and and maybe they thought there was this afghanistani kind of corp coming in, but they never seen a group of indians come to their army base. So you know, you know who are these guys, what are you doing here, coming to these cars. So we came with our food, we came with our sort of smell of food, brown people, really intense warmup and and kind of playing on this, really celebrating the attack, probably more than as a coach I would now recommend, but kind of really enjoying the point. And I remember, I remember faces looking at us and sort of these are mainly white communities. So we're going to places and there'll be. They've never seen a group of like 12 asian guys turn up. They just never, never interacted with them that way.
Speaker 2:So that was always different and they were a lot more, a lot more inclusive and I think we were all about winning. So I mean, not great, as a coach I'd say, let people in, but the team wanted to win and and we, um, we actually attracted quite a few english players who wanted that same sort of style of attack play um so very you know, so you know, still you know, in a sporting manner, but it was just you know in a sporting manner, but it was just you know. Losing was not okay in our culture and we pretty much won everything. And now, thinking back, I think it was more than the sport, that battle. That battle was about societal issues.
Speaker 1:I was just about to ask you, actually, where do you think that desire to win comes from? Where do you think that sort of you mentioned cultural, you know a cultural shift? Where do you think that sort of desire to win every game and to win every, you know win at every cost, where does that come from? Do you think?
Speaker 2:I mean. So India is kind of. I always describe India as like 24 nations. It's 24 official languages, like europe condensed into one country.
Speaker 2:So where we are, we are the sikhs and the punjabis are partly kind of martial people, um, and we've we're, we're sort of um I often kind of talk about nigerians and punjabis and we're kind of we're farmers basically. So we farm the land, we live as we want to live and we're quite physical. The indian army there's so the land we live as we want to live and we're quite physical. The indian army there's so many punjabis and sikhs they've had to put a quota on reducing, uh, punjabis in the indian. So we're quite competitive, sports wise. You know, farmers live off the land, really healthy, kind of strong.
Speaker 2:But I think that that there was a big identity issue there. Um, there was a lot of racism um in the country and and I experienced that firsthand, um, and I know that my parents did as well, my dad did, definitely did um so to to that it was kind of solidarity and a comfort area to play together and then to play with a team that, um, and to kind of beat them was maybe beating some of that repression, maybe, um, but I think it's quite complex about how they played um, but we enjoyed, you know, we enjoyed. We enjoyed the game and we enjoyed um. Yeah, so the team played well and they beat us.
Speaker 1:The team were really happy, though it was good, you know, good, good team but thinking about this word diversity right, and I'm very passionate about this word is, when we think of the word diversity, we often think about the same thing, but actually in terms of sport, like, diversity can just mean different ideas about the game, right, who's to say your idea and my idea about volleyball is right or wrong? And I always say to the teams that I coach that coaching is subjective, like, I've got some ideas. It doesn't mean they're right or wrong, um, and I probably I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm gonna because hey, hey, um, but it's why I'm sort of a bit anti-coaching courses. Um, because, because I believe, like, people will have different, diverse sort of theories of volleyball and not just volleyball, right, any sport you know, you go and watch any sport, people have got different ideas of how the sport should be played. And I think in sport we should celebrate diversity in thinking in, in race, gender, sexuality. We should celebrate diversity right, I think.
Speaker 2:I think it makes it richer, I mean the game richer, um, and it's almost as fascinating. As you know, it's not just sometimes doing the sport but doing things around the sport, like we talked about earlier, so going to play another team and just mixing with another team, and you know all those sort of you know the subtle things about what substitutions you do when, when they come on, giving everybody a chance or or less of a chance, and you know, kind of um, yeah, I mean, I I think the team were really sporting always, um, but it's, it's a reaction to a situation. So if there's a, there is in volleyball through the net, banter there is um it happens in in the game.
Speaker 2:So there's always a group of group of guys and another group of guys in a men's game talking about particularly um, uh and and that bit of banter between the team and kind of bravado, which, which you know you can play on as a coach to build your team, to play to that bravado or you can play to your team loss.
Speaker 2:So the concept like, for example, the concept of coming together and kind of you know, touching hands at our point loss was just never going to be there for g and g bedford, it was just, it was kind of touching hands at point loss was just never going to be there for G&G Bedford, it was just, it was kind of, you know, they were just about to knock the guy out. That was your third set and you didn't win the point. I mean, you know they're looking at the bench already, so but when they won and they won the point, it was just it was quite spectacular, so but they enjoyed that, you know they enjoyed that. You know they enjoyed that competitive spirit and they enjoyed playing teams that were pushing them um, uh, because that's what sport and volleyball brings. It brings that wonderful kind of. You know that you play with panache, you play with passion, and the other team recognizes that. So you know, on the gate, on the court, it's different.
Speaker 1:Off the court, you know your, your friends, um, so it's great so before we, before we move on, I'm interested to find out a little bit more about as you grew up then and as you got more. You know physical, like you said, taller. You know turning it into adulthood. How did volleyball look like for you then? Where did you go and play? You've mentioned national leagues. Tell us a little bit about your playing, your playing days so.
Speaker 2:So when I kind of grew up and I became sort of early teens and sort of 15, 16, I mean, my defensive skills were actually really good. I'm saying that myself but I, you know, dive, swan, dive everywhere and they used me in the team like that. They used me as a receiver, um, because I was flexible, I was young and and had the height to to hit a ball and I think that the you know, as a coach, those 10 000 repetitions rule that we have. So if you're just playing all the time, it just becomes secondary to kind of hit a ball um, uh, I, I had, um a really horrible experience of kind of sometimes I've I've kind of knocked people out unintentionally because I smashed the ball. It was fully automatic and playing and the person was there on the other side just looking at me and the ball hit their face, and so it wasn't intentional at all. But playing at that age and you go through the middle and you hit that ball, it came so natural to me that my I still remember my hamstrings were so tight, um, I could never, I could never touch the base of my knee on the floor because I was jumping all the time. I was just jump, jump, jump, continuously jumping and we really we so enjoyed. I still remember this feeling of looking forward to a match, like one or two days before, and then getting really excited on the day saying, oh, we're going to go to play at luton or we're going to go and play the milton keynes and we're going to play these big teams, and and that excitement about playing as a youngster was still there. But so much was happening.
Speaker 2:Um, so in the this is in the 80s um so I'm the I'm the eldest son of the eldest son in my family, so every weekend we'd have a wedding or a function in the family. Every weekend we'd have a game. I was playing tennis, I was doing my A-levels and my family really wanted me to succeed at education. So there's so much going on and volleyball was kind of consuming all my time, but I loved it and the great game was great. Um, I was in that mixed off those attackers, so I never really got a chance to play sort of in my attacking until later on.
Speaker 2:But my younger career was was sort of defense and kind of came coming on. Um, I still remember national league game. We played a national league game and we were losing and they brought me on for the last, I think, two points in the National League game and I think I was 16. So I've been on the bench all this time kind of waiting and hoping. I had no intention of coming on because I know how my team played, but they knew the game was lost. So they brought me on and I managed to spike over the block and I hadn't even planned to spike over the block. I won the point because I jumped up high enough to hit over the top of the block and put the point in and it was just automatic. And I think my team were just as surprised as the opposition. Where's this young kid been sitting on the bench all the time? Why haven't you played him? But it was fun. It was really.
Speaker 1:It's really good fun and, and you mentioned sort of national league. So what was the highest level you played at then?
Speaker 2:so, um, I mean, I was still really young then but gee, I I had a flip career with national league. So at 18 I ended up I got kind of dumped in london from, grew up in bedford, in school in bedford and at 18 I was in south woodford halls. Um, I never lived out of home. I was there um at 18 and I kind of played in um at uni, um, uh, the london university team, but basically study so most. So I ended up playing most of my kind of serious career in London League in the London League, yeah, uh, from a very early age and I still was linked, linked to Bedford. But because I was studying in London and then I worked, um, I worked in London in uh kind of banking sector. So I've basically been, I've got kind of shifted to London from Bedford so I played London League Bedford team had was not in the national league then and I touched on a few other clubs.
Speaker 2:When I was younger I trained with Polonia at 24. That was an experience, luke, because I never jump served. I'd never, ever jump served my life. I went to I think it's Bedford Leisure Centre where Polonia were training and Chris and I think Chris is still there, pol Julian, that he was an England setter. So I was the shortest person. I'm six foot. I was the shortest person there, um, and they said, okay, we're going to warm up with jump serves. And I never, luke, ever, jump served in my life.
Speaker 2:Um, so so I learned how to jump serve, um, the guys were amazing, um, I mean on another level, and so I kind of, I kind of experienced that coaching, I think the at uni, the university of london first team, which I did get selected for they trained in south west london and I was um at uni at east london, kind of just in marlend, which, so it just was. It was really difficult so I did, I played a little bit, but I played um more in my sort of 20s um at, uh, wilsdon, wilsdon Volleyball Club. For about eight years um played with KSASemka in West London and I played for Enfield Volleyball Club, maidenhead Volleyball Club, um, uh and a few other sort of clubs for a short while, but Wilsdon was a big one.
Speaker 1:I hear you're quite a london league. Uh, legend is my, is my uh no, thank you.
Speaker 2:I mean I, I. So I played as an outside kind of power hitter, let's say, um, mainly for wilson and the london league. I would still say it's kind of NBL, div 1, div 1 at least, and a lot of the big teams and Docklands and now merged with Richmond. A lot of the top national teams had London connections and there was three, four teams. But there was something different about the London League which I want to share here. The London League was about different, diverse communities getting together to play sport, which was absolutely amazing. So we played with, so in Tottenham. I remember going to Tottenham and it was a Kurdish team. It was a Turkish Kurdish team which actually played very similar to how I played with G&G Bedford, which actually played very similar to how I played with G&G Bedford.
Speaker 2:Wilsdon was a complete eclectic mix of French, British, polish, me. It was just a complete mix. There was a couple of Kurdish guys in there and Stuart Fullerton, I think, was. I never actually met him but he was a legend at Wilsdon and he kind of started that club. So I lived in St Albans. Oh, I played with st albans harriers um for a while in hearts league, um, so I basically it was on my way down into the city, wilson, um, but the london league was full of, like, greeks and cypriots and italians and germans and french, so you have this really rich european basis of teams and the teams have that culture. So the top league in London at least Div 1, national League, probably some of the Super 8 can be. So it was, um, it was fun playing. You can come back after work, you could go go go to different parts of London, um, and and it was super competitive, um. So I really enjoyed playing in the London League.
Speaker 2:So most of my sort of 10 prime years. There is something I probably I should share. So I trained with a few other teams but I overplayed Luke, so I had cartilage damage and at 30, 32, I couldn't walk five feet because I kept playing. I kept because I wanted to play in that match and I wanted to play as the outside attacker, um, because I could knew I could get the points, um, I had this really weird run-up which I kind of ran to the spectators on the side and I kind of came back in to get that extra, extra speed in the jump and do a cross here, um, so I was so into volleyball that I kept playing.
Speaker 2:And now you know it means the sports side and psychology and the, the kind of physio is totally changed. Um, so at 30 I had to I think 32, I had to stop playing because I could not walk five feet. That's, that's. Um, it's quite shocking when it happens to you, when you have to get a black cab everywhere in London because you can't walk because of volleyball. Um, so I I had to break after that point.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that's my sort of history let's, let's move on, because the part of the conversation that I'm really intrigued and I want to find out more and I alluded to it in the um, in the introduction, really, and you've made a few references to already is that, you know, coming from a different culture, coming from from India and playing a different style of volleyball.
Speaker 2:Um, you've you've told me a few challenges that you faced, and I'm sure there were more than a few um, but for the listeners out there, maybe share some of the stories of the challenges that you faced across your career early, all the way to now so, yes, um, so thank you, luke, for giving me a chance to um just kind of share some of the challenges, and I think, um, uh, you know, as you're growing up and you be kind of going through adolescence and and and learning about the world, you, you don't really see what was happening until kind of later on. So sometimes we'd go, and especially the national league, uh, days, um, and I wasn't playing, I was still, I was still sort of 12 or 13 and and I'd see my parents go to um small sort of places. I still remember I think it was southampton or portsmouth and we, we went there's a very long drive from bedford. I remember these these are, these are older cars now it wasn't motorways everywhere. So getting there, and then the referee and I was must've been 12. So I was just, you know, by the sort of fruit machines and just watching the holes, that the referee told our captain that you're not going to win before the game, which was, wow, like you've come all this way to play a game, a national league game. And the referee, which was wow, like you've come all this way to play a game, national League game. And the referee just said, no, not gonna let you win. And to say it I mean to do it is different, but to say it before the game. So we ended up.
Speaker 2:I remember watching this game with fascination, saying what's going to happen here, because this is like a World War III sort of game. The game was really close and and and our team lost three, two, um, it was so competitive and it was a really close game and at the end of the game the players shook hands as sportsmen and the players themselves were, were totally fine with each other and kind of we moved the dial of how they'd seen us coming in, the sort of kind of brown people coming in to a fundamental white area, unwelcome, not very, you know, kind of liked, and how sport changed it. But there's been, you know, the more you think about it, the more you think there was actually many more incidents like that where it was less obvious. But I think that's the challenge of sport, how sport brings people together, and is it our job to educate or is it the kind of the other side's job to be informed is another battle. But there were quite a few incidents.
Speaker 2:But genuinely the team were having so much fun playing volleyball together that it was kind of like a secondary thing. It was secondary issue and and as we kind of went around the country, um, we made more and more friends and you know that the color of your skin became less and less important. Um, and maybe you know, maybe now, that was then in the 80s and 90s, and now, because our team is more diverse, it's more cultured, we ended up we played a tournament. One of our players is from Lithuania. We went to Lithuania to play in this kind of major tournament. They had never seen a brown person in Lithuania and they all thought we played basketball because they know about basketball, they didn't know about volleyball. So all these people were staring at us, um, and kind of.
Speaker 2:And I remember coming back to stansted, we landed at stansted and um, uh, from with the volleyball team and going up the escalators, um, I, somebody kicked me in the back of the leg and I thought it must have slipped. The guy must have just slipped on the, on the, on the stairwell up, and so we were in our volleyball kit and we all mixed and, um, we've got. We had a Bulgarian player who could speak a bit of Russian and he and I remember him getting into an argument with these guys kind of defending us, saying what are you guys doing in Russian to these guys? Because they didn't. They didn't like us. So we got into a situation where we could either form the police and said, like you know, this has happened, but we just kind of got on with it life.
Speaker 2:But I mean this there were challenges and I think in my career Luke, I think, just touched on it in the sort of before we started I could have played at other clubs and I remember training with the Division One National League team, kind of sort of western side of London, but I never really clicked with the team and I didn't really feel I was made welcome. It was kind of, yeah, you're quite good, you're a good volleyball player, but you know, we've got other people. So I think those challenges were there, they were real. But also there is a style of volleyball that I wanted to play and I found that the Polish community I love the way they play the game and they're really sort of passionate about it and so I connected with some of the Kurds and the Turkish and kind of the fiery players about it and it's not for everybody. Volleyball is different. So I wanted to play with people that accepted me, and accepted me for my sport and and and also my personality. But, um, you know, it's a two-way street, so there were challenges.
Speaker 1:Um, I think that society as well was like that well, you're right, like we've come on a long way, right, but there's still a long way to go. And uh, um, when we talk about discrimination, we can talk about it as direct discrimination or indirect discrimination, right? So I'm sure you know any other sort of stories you've got where you know it's really interesting to hear someone say they didn't feel welcomed to a club, because I think, you know, as clubs, we always want people, right, we always want, we all you know. But tell us maybe a little bit more about how you've felt, or how you've been made to feel when it comes to being included so I think, yeah, I mean, that's it.
Speaker 2:So if you turn up to a established club and there's lots of players and you feel an outsider anyway just any team you come along and so you're looking for that little bit of extra help about you know. You know why don't you come for a drink afterwards, or you know lemonade could be anything, um, or just kind of mixing their social circles, or you're you kind of need that friendship from somebody, um, so, um. So, turning up to clubs where you train, you play, you know you know your capability, everybody knows their capability volleyball. You know if you can play in that team or not at that level, um, and so when it's a bit cold, when you go to, you know you go out of your way.
Speaker 2:You go to a place and it feels cold and you feel you're just a sort of spare part. That's how it feels like. You feel like you turn up and um, and you go through the motions and you train and you warm up, but there's no joy, there's no like hi, luke, great, how you been. You ask a few questions about your life and just how you been, haven't seen you for a while. Great, you can come and just talk about something else and you don't get that sometimes.
Speaker 1:Do you think there's ever been? Has there ever been times and it's great to hear your perspective on this where you feel like the color of your skin, your race has, has really been the reason why you've not been selected for a team? Or and they've and they've put your volleyball ability down to it because it's easier, you know, or you know. Do you think that's ever happened?
Speaker 2:usually it's happened in teams where, basically, they've used me because I can play volleyball at a different level but, um, but not you're the kind of you feel used, basically feel users as a like an outside hitter so I can hit a ball uh, better than their players. So they play me, they use me in the team and, um, yeah, it feels quite a lot. It's happened quite a lot. I have also experienced the other end of that, where where, um, club members have made me feel extra welcome so they've invited me to their annual uh function and they've gone the kind of the extra bit to say, reginda, can you make it, can you come to this place? And and I still remember that, I still remember this this lovely lady asking me to come to the, the annual kind of dinner um event, and I felt so welcome. I thought, wow, I'm gonna go turn up and um, and you feel you feel part of the, the group, not not the game, um, uh, and so, um, basically you can experience it.
Speaker 2:But in some teams I went to I never got set. I just never got set. Um, I, you know, and I'll be looking at their faces, the setter's face, saying what are you doing? Like you know that you you give him the same the ball to the same person. He's been blocked out two or three times. I'm waiting on the outside for your set. It doesn't come, luke, so you can put sometimes it's, it's, it's through words, but a lot of it's on the court.
Speaker 1:When you see on the court and you just don't get set, um, uh and that's the difference between sort of indirect and direct right is it can be some of our behaviors, some of our actions, some of our lack of doing something, absolutely not necessarily doing something intentionally, but lack of including you in the social element, lack of inviting you to the events, lack of setting you the ball, that that is indirect right yeah and luke, it happened to me in one team and I'd have been playing with them for quite a while and it is quite, you know, it's quite emotional for me, but basically they put me on at the end they didn't give me a ball.
Speaker 2:We had a bit of a you know, a bad experience in that game. Um, I felt totally underused and and so when the team members were arguing with me, um, because I said, well, why did you put me on for the last five points? And you know I'm probably one of your best bikers um, because they didn't want me want to put me on, and I took my shirt off. I left the shirt with them, I left the club, um, I never came back and I still remember I don't want to mention the club, but the club calling me a couple of seasons later because they'd entered the national league, and saying Virginia, would you like to come back and play with us? And it was no, because you, you, um.
Speaker 2:So I think it's about sometimes in clubs not every, not all the players are like that, but if you get some of the kind of leaders of the club that take a certain line, um, it's devastating for for, uh, inclusion, um, I remember, um, I remember this um kurdish guy, amazing hitter, power hitter, not the, you know, the biggest guys, but the power, middle power hitter is huge.
Speaker 2:And I remember talking to him as he was so vexed not being selected on the team, and walking around the court and buddying up with him and so just you know, like having someone to talk to and kind of vent some of your frustrations out to um, but that those players are really good, but they play in a certain style and they absolutely have to feel included in the team, um, and that's, you know, direct or indirect or you know kind of socially, um, and and you know you, you might be okay for that game and that that's that, that few sets sequences, but and you might not care that you haven't done well as as as a team, but you will lose players and and and um and and the game's poorer for it. So it doesn't happen all the time, but but normally like what happens is you just just walk away and you go somewhere else and um, before we move on.
Speaker 1:Just sort of touch on that really around. Like culture, yeah, so like, for me and this is what I do in my work like culture is about. Culture is created by behavior and what behavior you accept becomes culture, right? So if, like you said, you've got a team of players where the core of the team, three or four of the senior team or the leaders, display those behaviors and those behaviors aren't challenged, then that's the, that's the culture of your club and that takes years, decades to shift some of that right, because it cuts absolutely. It cuts deep and you mentioned earlier about the word and I'm a bit passionate about this, so I can hear my voice going already the word banter, right, but like banter is used to exclude people, not to include people. Banter is always at the cost of someone else, not to include someone in the conversation. So I can, throughout sport history, not just volleyball, right there'll be lots of people that have said and have used that word oh, it's just banter, it's just, unless you're on the end of it yeah, if you're delivering it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's delivering it, you're enjoying putting someone down. Basically, um, and you know, there's a fun element of sport and there is a fun element, but, um, I think, I think, think you kind of hit the nail on the head. It's when your leaders or your coach, or your setter has a certain attitude. I mean, the setter is so critical on the team and so he's controlling it, he's being allowed to control it by the coach and the captain potentially. So if you don't rein it in and have those limits and those you know healthy boundaries, it becomes toxic and people leave and you're right and accepting.
Speaker 2:So I think you know, for me, I really struggled to get a job at 21. I got a degree, top degree, from one of the best universities, and this lovely English lady took me to her side and said it's probably because of your name that you don't get the interview. And she was amazing. She was a lovely English lady. She said you know, if you had been John Smith, because you know my name was Rajinder Singh, so having the great degree didn't really matter. It was kind of, you know, it was sort of subtle, but so you. So, yeah, there's good people out there that you know, eventually I did.
Speaker 2:Well, I found, but it was I think you hear this so much time you have to. You have to be so much better than your counterpart, who's not kind of from a diverse background, to get into a team sometimes, um, and then you think, well, is it worth it? Um, did I, you know, have I, have I accepted that culture and that behavior, so should I even be part of that team? And I think now, with hindsight, um, I should have walked away earlier from certain teams. Um, but I wanted to play, I wanted to play and I don't think, I don't think there was that many teams that I could have walked into and and and felt at home. And that's why I kind of keep going back to G&G Bedford and I still have that, even though I live in London, west London.
Speaker 1:I go to Bedford the weekends, but because the team is now diverse and inclusive and well, and I get that respect yeah, and that's where I want to sort of lead this conversation to now then. So, like I mentioned at the start, it's national inclusion week this week, um, viable england celebrating, uh, how inclusive we are as a sport 30 of our members coming from ethnically diverse communities. Um 45 of our players from female are females, 55 males. But we do have some challenges, right, we're Only 12% of our coaches are from an ethnically diverse community and only 34% of our referees are female. So not just race, and we're also talking sex, gender, sexuality. So someone like you who has championed a community in volleyball, tell us what can clubs do to be more inclusive?
Speaker 2:I want to hear it from, from you so I think, first of all, you have to, you have to value the inclusion and value people as people, as sports people, and I think that okay. So if you're in an area where it's not diverse, I get it, you kind of, you know it, it's, it's a similar background, people. But if you're in an area which is diverse which is a lot of this country, by the way, currently um, uh, you, you kind of, you need to, I feel you need to look at inclusivity on a similar sort of safeguarding and well-being lines. So how would so put yourself in the shoes of somebody from a different background coming to your club and really honestly reflect, say, how would that person be made to feel? How would they feel? Are we welcoming new players? Um, you should be welcoming everybody and you can grow a sport, wonderful sport. So put yourself in the shoes of a new player, um, from a different background, coming in, uh, put yourselves and and I've also faced as well put yourself in in. Like, if, um, and if a woman wants to join your club, how how would she be made to feel? Because there's extra, you know, gender challenges, there's diversity challenges, um, the sexuality challenges, there's lots of clubs and age, you know younger people, older people, um, how they gel and mix together. So if you, if you put yourselves in those shoes and walk into your club, um, and see how it feels, and and, and then say, do you want to be that sort of club or do you want to be more open? And there are tactics and tips and one of the tips is, I would say, is, um, uh, you try to make them feel more welcome than just the sport, just the volleyball drill.
Speaker 2:Ask them about how they are, ask them about you know what their background is, show some interest other than just the volleyball. So don't just say how many years have you played at what position so you know where you're back. Have a conversation, have a and it takes time and the coach doesn't have to do that. It can be another figure in the club, so you could be your safeguarding officer, it could be your uh, your your captain, or your your kind of assistant captain or coach.
Speaker 2:So somebody, if somebody, makes the time to have a conversation, find out a little bit background about the person, make them feel welcome and ask them you know how, do you feel welcome? Do you feel welcome in our club? And we want to make you feel welcome, um, and if you have a challenge then you can come back to me kind of buddying up. We talk about his buddying up and you say, if they have a person to kind of discuss and make them feel welcome, so try that um, feel that club. I think also maybe, um, maybe play in with, with with clubs at a different level, so, um, and a different background. So there's lots of wonderful tournaments um, up and down the country. So go, and you know, go and go out of your comfort zone, play, play some other teams that are from different backgrounds, um, and what's your what's, what's your stance, then, from an inclusion perspective, um, curious to find out about this, about communities that run their own tournaments.
Speaker 1:Do you feel there should be more integration? Do you feel there should be more connection between different? Because I know of afghanistan, afghanis, um, that have their own tournaments and filipinos that have their own tournament but there is a.
Speaker 2:There is a, there's a summer kabaddi circuit in our india sort of punjabi culture. So all the towns in the country sort of Leicester, bradford, birmingham, I mean London they have this wrestling tournament and the volleyball used to tag along to that. So there was all the big towns have volleyball, indian volleyball teams and they play along to that and that's great. But you're going to play Indians, you're going to play the same people. And it's interesting for me the shift that Bedford had from fundamentally all Indian to kind of gradually changing Polish and British and different cultures come in and I can honestly say hand on heart that the club now is so diverse and it's wonderful, it's so much better. There is there's there's a, there's a youth, youth teams there's. There's ladies teams, there's all backgrounds, youth youth teams there's. There's ladies teams, there's. All backgrounds come to. Yes, there's still a core group of people like myself, kind of from that background. But the fact that we're second generation and now coming on to third generation, um, indians who integrated, um, the club is so much better. It's it. It there's still that fun element, there's still that competitive element, um, and we're richer. So the rewards are there. If, if you, if you want to open up um.
Speaker 2:We had a 30 team tournament in bedford recently which I chaired um and I spent my day walking around. So I didn't, I didn't, I don't stop playing now, um, just making sure that all the teams feel welcome and feel included and that includes some of the, the, you know, the, the younger team, some of the, the girls that were playing from all the lovely clubs around, and when I opened that um the tournament, I talked about our volleyball family across Northamptonshire, cambridgeshire, bedfordshire, hertfordshire. So all those teams were from that local area and we are a volleyball family that promote inclusivity and I was going around to some of the bigger teams and saying I hope you're playing very fairly to some of these juniors, because we played around Robin, where one of the feedback that we had was that some of the teams felt they were pigeonholed and they wanted to play other teams. So we had a completely random selection in the first half of the tournament. So everybody played, people at different levels and I think that not just for the, for youngsters, um from different background getting to the game, but also for the more professionals to play softly and with more sporting culture towards the team.
Speaker 2:Um, there was a one, there was one or two teams that were a little bit too competitive against some of the juniors and I told them off. But, um, but I think that that that's the sort of a tip that I would say that you have somebody you know like I can give back to volleyball more now, my a later stage as a coach, I'm also a referee, grade four referee, um, as a coach, um, and as a sort of a mentor of the sport, and and, and I also sponsored our national league team, by the way, when we played nationally, because they couldn't afford it. So, with my background, so you know financial support and that that's really rewarding for me. So go to these tournaments, play different, play different against different teams, play at different levels.
Speaker 1:Be able to have that variation in your, in your club, that you can play at different levels and at a different pace, and and make and really think about making people feel welcome, because your club will only improve if you do that yeah, yeah, as we're talking, it reminded me of a uh, a situation we had in in our club many years ago now, which has always sort of stuck in my head about, when we as a, as a standing um team, played against a sitting team and we all went and played sitting volleyball and engaged with a part of the community that we hadn't engaged with before. These are people that are veterans and amputees, um, and, wow, like, honestly, what an experience. How much did we learn from from them and from volleyball and learning different skills that you know sitting and, like you said, the, the thing that, the thing that really gets me is the word, this word volleyball, family. I've been involved in volleyball for 15, yeah, 15, 20 years nearly, and, um, it is a family.
Speaker 1:We go up and down this great country and meet so many people through our sport and you know, I think and I feel that volleyball is a very inclusive sport, but there is always more that can be done, right? So, if you're a club listening to this and perhaps you feel like you don't celebrate diversity enough, maybe you are guilty of being you guilty of pigeonholing your athletes. What do you think clubs could do? Rajinder, just some small, really easy tips to make it more accessible and open.
Speaker 2:I think, just think about how someone could join your club and think about some of your social habits as well. I think that can can off. Put people, um, if you so, you're, you're adaptable. Not, you know, not everybody wants to have lots of drinks afterwards. Um, so have some events that are softer. Your annual events, um, and, and you know, play, play during the summer.
Speaker 2:Go to some of these tournaments that are varied. Um, I think, um, you know, the ashcombe tournament we're listening to podcast cambridge tournaments. They're big, big tournaments, but you get to meet so many other people and see how. But make sure you play in those tournaments and you play at a level that that you can see different formats for four side, six aside, uh, two aside, and, and, and. And. Have that variation. Have that flexibility so that when you it's not big bang hey, this, this, we've got this. You know this person from a totally different background.
Speaker 2:Um, because you've met players like that, you've played against them and you, you've talked to them, you socialize with them. So, making that extra bit of time to at the start, to greet people, making extra time to and, and you'll only benefit from playing against, you know, in, in, in, in open tournaments against other other other clubs and cultures. If you're really if you're amazing and this Bedford did this go to Europe and play in a tournament in Europe because such an eye opener in terms of different cultures and playing. Holland has some of the best tournaments ever um, really tall guys, though and it's a holiday and you play volleyball because my I've got pictures of my dad at a disco in holland dancing with his white, white woman and my mom looking at this picture horrified what is my dad doing? Dancing with his? It was just and it made memories. I still remember that now today. So with his, it was just, it was just and it made memories. I still remember that now today.
Speaker 1:So try that, it would just, it would just be really good fun well, that, and that is exactly volleyball right, and sport is to make memories, and it leads us on to the, the, the last part of the conversation already. But if you're like I said, if you're listening to this conversation and you feel like you could benefit some extra help about how to make sure your club is more inclusive and and celebrates diversity, then head over to volleyball england's club hub, where you can find a range of resources as part of inclusion week um within the volleyball england club hub, like I said. So, um, reginda, let's wrap up this conversation. I can't believe we've already been talking for 52 minutes. You seriously do um need to write a book, and I will be the first um, the first customer um. So you've talked a lot about what volleyball has given you, so a huge community, a network of friends, health, fun and enjoyment. But how about what you're now giving back to volleyball, and especially your role in the community?
Speaker 2:so, no, thank you, luke, for giving me a chance to that. So I I am, so I retired from my sort of busy career in the city and I and I've kind of been doing a lot with sports and health inequality in in London and West London and getting people um into the sport, um or into any sport in terms of helping their health, and volleyball just kind of connects so many dots together. So I've been coaching at schools, um, I mean, I'm a strategic lead for a long term change in West London. I'm trying to help create facilities and the the conditions so that people can play volleyball in West London. I do a lot of talking, as you've probably heard in this podcast, so I chair events, I present awards and I can help create the conditions at West London Club at Bedford and kind of Bedford club um to create, you know, to get a more inclusive and richer volleyball community because the sport is so amazing.
Speaker 2:Um, my health, without a doubt, has benefited so much from playing all these years.
Speaker 2:I am still relatively healthy, um, uh, I I still, I'm still active, I give back, but I really enjoy being part of that community and I would say to people, especially maybe in the latter days of your career to still be involved in coaching or refereeing or with a club and still because we still need kind of the volleyball store balls to be around and it's easy to kind of move on. But, you know, tap into those people, make them feel welcome. And I'd love to give back more kind of some of my professional background strategic linkage into volleyball. I've got a few things that I'm doing with volleyball england. I hope they'll come to fruition and I hope that um more of the diverse community that play in the kind of satellite areas can get back into the kind of core areas and the core team um. So if I can help to do that and I think I'm helping to do that in bedford um, um it will be a win for me and something I can put put back in awesome.
Speaker 1:Look at that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just want to stay on and speak to you for hours no, thank you luke thank you, yeah, and it's often the way that I have so many questions and so many things I want to ask and I know we've touched on some of your stories. But, reginda, I'm guessing for the people that are out there who maybe want to find out a little bit more, they can find out a bit more about the club at gng bedford. We didn't really even talk about your role within SGSS Southall, so perhaps you know, if people are interested, reach out to your club and find out more right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Especially Bedford. I mean Southall Club. It's massive, there's a huge amount of talent. I kind of run out of hours in the day to run, run some of the volleyball, the sort of school stuff I do. So the the Bedford club is really where my focus is in terms of the youth team, the women's team and kind of the national league team that's entered again this year. So in Bedfordshire, and I'm going to be, I'm available in the sporting world If you share, and I'm going to be, I'm available in the sporting world, um, uh, if you, if you want to coach, if you want to bring some a different type of coaching to your club, then I'm happy to attend a session and maybe coach a session, um, uh, and make myself available for other clubs awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:Now it wouldn't be fair to let you off without um, without my usual tradition on this podcast of um, some fun, this or that questions at the end. So I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Some of them are volleyball related, some of them are not, um, and you just answer quick fire, this or that. So we've got to know you as the legend, the volleyball legend, and the guy who champions and celebrates diversity in this community. But let's find out a bit more about you. So you ready. This one took me ages to think of. Okay, orange juice or apple juice, orange juice, definitely playing competitively or just playing for fun.
Speaker 1:Competitively, long rally or big block, oh big block. I'm five foot eight. I don't know what that feels like Teaching others or learning from others.
Speaker 2:Teaching others. I love teaching.
Speaker 1:Early bird or night owl.
Speaker 2:Early bird.
Speaker 1:Being part of a big, diverse team or small, tight knit team.
Speaker 2:Or big.
Speaker 1:Diverse has to be I was, yeah, I thought, about that track me and finally, my final question for you, then, is the question I always ask everybody um, do you love to win or hate to lose? Love to win.
Speaker 2:I have to say love to win.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. I'm keeping a tally of this. Rajinder, I just want to say a huge thank you. Thank you for coming on to the podcast, thank you for sharing and being vulnerable and sharing some of your stories, some of the challenges that you faced early on in your career. I know the amazing work that you're doing. To say that those experiences aren't the experiences of players now, but, as I know, you know, it still happens and we've got more to do. But for me and from all the volleyball community, a huge thank you. It's great to have you on the show, it's great to hear some of your stories and I'm going to keep in touch, for sure lovely.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for giving me a chance to to share, share my my love of the game.
Speaker 1:Thank you, no problem so, guys, that was rajinder singh on the digging deeper show and whatever you're up to, just remember, keep playing, but most importantly, as rajinder's been talking about, keep that volleyball spirit alive. We are one big volleyball family here in england and it's um, it's great to have you on the show. So, thank you for listening and, uh, enjoy that volleyball guy, the Volleyball Guy.
