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Digging Deeper – Nick Heckford: Whistles, World Stages, and What’s Next in the Rules
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In this episode of Digging Deeper, I’m joined by Nick Heckford, a man whose passion for volleyball and refereeing has carried him on an incredible journey from local courts in Poole, Dorset, all the way to the biggest stages in the sport. At the time of recording, Nick was speaking to me from the Philippines at three o’clock in the morning, where he was working as a Challenge Referee at the Men’s World Championships — a true sign of his dedication to the game.
Nick’s story began when his wife encouraged him to give volleyball a try. What started as a bit of fun quickly turned into a fascination with the rule book, a whistle, and a new role in the sport. Within just seven years, Nick progressed from refereeing in local leagues to becoming an international referee, officiating at the Olympic Games, the World League, the VNL, and the World Championships. It’s a journey that reflects not just opportunity, but a mindset rooted in growth, learning, and an enduring love for the game.
In our conversation, Nick reflects on what it takes to referee at the very highest level and why he treats every single match as a chance to learn something new, regardless of whether it’s a local league game or the Olympic stage. We also explore his work as the lead of the Officials Working Group, where he is shaping the future of refereeing in the UK, and his deep commitment to raising standards across every level of the game.
Nick also gives us fascinating insights into the recent changes to the rules, sharing what they mean for the sport and offering his vision for “smooth refereeing” — a philosophy that prioritises letting the game flow, creating longer rallies, and making volleyball even more exciting for players and spectators alike.
As always, the episode is packed with reflections, stories, and insights, before we wrap things up with a fun game of This or That. This is a conversation that captures not only the journey of one of the UK’s most respected referees, but also the passion and vision that continue to shape the sport today.
Connecting Through Conversation
That volleyball guy.
SPEAKER_03:Hello, I'm Luke Wilkella, host of That Volleyball Guy, and if you love volleyball as much as me, then you're in the right place. And before we go into today's episode, just thought I'd take a moment to recap on some statistics that I wanted to share with you. Remind myself all the time about the reason why I set up this podcast. And that the reason why I did set up this podcast was to give those people, whether they be currently active in the sport or given so much to the sport in England, the chance to tell their stories, share some of their knowledge, and just share more. That's what I'm extremely passionate about in the volleyball community. And I'm really pleased to have another excellent guest on our show tonight. So I've done 37 episodes now of this podcast. And interestingly, we've reached 64 different countries and 624 cities. And we've had nearly 6,000 downloads of the podcast. Just great to see that the podcast is reaching so many people and people not just in England but all across the globe. And my guest tonight actually joins us from the other side of the world, but we'll come on to that in a second. So then, my guest on the Digging Deeper show tonight is a volleyball England referee since 2001 and a Hall of Famer. He's the lead of the officials working group and has been doing that since 2018. He's currently an FIVB and CEV challenge referee, a former international referee from 2007 to 2020 uh 2023. He's been a challenge referee at the VNL this year. And he's currently at the time of recording this podcast, he's currently in the Philippines for the Men's World Championships as a challenge referee. It is my pleasure to introduce Nick Heckford to the show. Hello, Nick.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, Nick.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, pleasure to be here. Right, before we start this, at the time of recording, everyone, and this is this episode's going to go out in a couple of weeks' time, Nick, but it's currently what time in the morning for you? It's three o'clock.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So um, so firstly, thank you for for making the effort to be on the show. Massive appreciation.
SPEAKER_00:That's no problem.
SPEAKER_03:Um obviously, Nick, we've known each other for a while. Um I have lots of interesting conversations with you about volleyball at different competitions, but I've never actually had an hour to sit down with you. Um and I was extremely when I when I was given your details and asked to reach out and speak to you about coming on the show, I was extremely pleased that you uh had agreed to come up for it because I think you're gonna be a great guest with lots of stories to tell.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So let's um let's start where I start with every guest then. Tell us more uh about how you got into and I'm I'm really curious about this bit because I don't know. Uh sometimes I know the answer to the questions, but this one I don't know. So tell us a little bit more about how you got into volleyball, regardless officiating, playing. I don't know. Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so um I uh I got I got into it because my um uh uh my wife played a little bit of recreational volleyball um down in the uh down in Paul um within the Paul and Bournemouth Volleyball Association and their um their local league. Um and when I started going out with her, um I joined the club and uh Purbeck, it doesn't exist anymore, but Purbeck Volleyball Club. Um and they just needed um referees to referee their matches during the in in the local league. So you know I I took that normal sort of thing of going, well, how hard can it be? Um got hold got hold of a of a uh uh a rule book, read it and and had a go. Um and um was um was encouraged by um by uh Stuart Dunn and um Andy Stevens at the time, um to uh which were connected to the club and um yeah to just do do a bit more. So I came into it as just sort of like the team needed a referee, and I thought, well, nobody else is that keen, so I'm quite happy to to have a go. Um and um it all stemmed from there, really. So that was um that was quite late actually for me. So I didn't come to volleyball until I was in my early 30s. Um so this is about 2000, 2001, somewhere around there, um, and uh quickly encouraged to get on a course and try and learn a bit more and um and then dump jump into the deep end in the MVL. So seem to remember my first MVL game was at Guildford International. Um I think it I think it went okay. Um I know for a fact that I I I uh interpreted the rules incorrectly a couple of times, but there we go. Um you you live and learn and you you you you learn by example and and experience and um yeah, and it from there it was always ex always learning because uh I didn't I didn't understand the uh what the what the teams were trying to do. I you know, I didn't didn't recognize um reception patterns or you know uh what what the setters trying to achieve and things like that. So um it was uh it was a steep learning curve, but um but yeah that's where it all started back in uh back in just about 2000 in the local league.
SPEAKER_03:And do you remember your um course, your refereeing course, your officiating course?
SPEAKER_00:Do you remember that? Yeah absolutely, it was at um I think it was at Melksham Sports Centre, um uh with uh Dan Dingle as uh as the tutor and um ably supported by Richard Morton, um who was there to as a as the to help out. And um I remember going up there for it was a two-day course then, uh going up there each day of uh of a weekend and uh on on day one um doing a bit of the theory and and mucking around on the court, um, and then on on day two um all call culminating in uh in an exam, which uh luckily I passed. And uh yeah, that was the start. That was it, that was it. That was the the moment of um right, uh you know, as soon as I passed the course, it was uh you know, Stuart said to me, you know, right, now you've got to get in the National League. So um get off up to Guildford and I think that you know one of my second matches must have been down at Plymouth, so it was nothing local.
SPEAKER_03:It's just like as as you were saying it, I was trying to think because um uh Nick mentioned Melchim, which is actually the tiny little town in Wiltshire where I'm from. That's my uh that's my town. I went to that school, and I'm thinking, I I was thinking, was I on the same course as you, but I'm trying to work it out as a speaker. And I reckon I did my level, I think it was was it called level four back then? Level four, yeah, yeah. Um I think I did mine in 2005. So you were just just a couple of years in front of me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, indeed, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:So, um so you got into uh National League refereeing, started refereeing at the National League, and and like you suggested just then up and down the sort of southwest of the country initially, I imagine. Um when was it you started to think, do you know what? I'd you know, maybe I could be good at this, when I could maybe I should do some more? What happened? Tell us the journey.
SPEAKER_00:Um so I was um I was invited to do a a couple of um uh a couple of bigger bigger um uh events and then um asked to go to the 2003 Island Games in Guernsey, um, which was um which was which was a good and and a bad experience for me because I only made it halfway through the tournament to about the Wednesday afternoon, um, when uh when I was standing waiting for a game to start and the uh the teams were peppering um in in front of me, and then one ball came off the arm of um uh one of the players and hit me straight in the eye. Um, pushed my glasses straight into my face, and um I couldn't see anything. I was uh luckily it didn't cut me or anything, but um but uh I I was I could hardly see anything, and um I was off to the hospital for a checkup, and that was the last I was allowed to referee that week. So I spent the rest of the week watching um uh everyone else um uh enjoy the tournament. And that was the first um first real um uh apart from national I I'd been to national finals to do a bit of line judging things, but that was the first time I'd I'd been to a tournament. And interestingly, um uh it was uh tournaments like that and the Jersey tournament and um uh and then the the Guernsey tournament as it was, if you remember the the Guernsey tournament um that that I went on around that time. And those were the first times actually I'd flown. I'd never flown before I went to the Jersey tournament. Um uh and uh um that was quite uh quite a milestone for me because now obviously each year I I I'm on a plane quite quite regularly for uh CV or or FIVB. So um yeah, that was the that was the start of the journey. Uh and that first tournament um was just fantastic, and it was just waiting for the next opportunity um we which came in 2005 at um the uh Island Games again. They were held in Shetland, and we had a fantastic time in Shetland Um with those uh with those tournaments, and then on to what was the at the time, the last Spring Cup, um we're in uh in Estonia with England, England men, um, and to Novartel in Luxembourg at the uh the the uh New Year tournament. And I was lucky enough to do that um a couple of times, um, and that taught me an awful lot um meeting some very um uh good international referees that were associated with that tournament um and uh getting a real taste of well, this is what it is to be an international referee. Um and so that led on to in 2007 um going on to my international course. Um I remember Bernard uh Kilkenny, who was president of the referee commission at the time, saying, right, you know, um we've got to be careful here because you're you've got to be on the international course by the time you're 41. Um and um he said, Well, there's an opportunity in Poland. It was the Hubert Wagnera, the fifth Hubert Wagner. Um, and um he said, Do you want to go? And I said, Well, yes, I do. But at the same time, um my son Oliver um was born, um, and he was 10 days old when I went to Olstryn in Poland for um for my international course. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:Um Well, I was I was gonna say, Nick, that um it's it's your wife's fault you got into volleyball anyway, right?
SPEAKER_00:So well absolutely that yeah, well, you know, I I I say to I say to her when when she says, you know, are you away for volleyball again? Um it says, Well, you know, if if you hadn't played it. This is all your fault. Yeah, I'd be still on a cricket field instead. Um but no, it was, you know, it and and to go on the international course, you know, we're the the Hubert Wagner that year was um uh the teams the teams were Great Britain's first tournament as a as a team, Great Britain men. Yeah, they went, and the other teams were um Poland, obviously, uh Serbia, um Slovakia, um uh Germany, um, and I'm trying to remember the other one. I think it was the Netherlands. Um and of course you had some great players, you had Gribich, Milko uh Um Mirkovic in in the Serbian team, you had um uh uh some uh some very very interesting coaches. Um Mokulescu was there, um uh Lozano who is here in in um who was here um in the Philippines with Ukraine. He was at the time the the coach of uh Poland. Um and it was it was wow, that was another um wonderful experience because uh volleyball in Poland is is amazing, and uh the the support for Poland um and for volleyball was was just um a real eye-opener as to this is well this is what this international sport is all about, and um you know um completely it really started you know that feeling of wow, I want to be part of this. This is this is great.
SPEAKER_03:And I know she was sitting there telling me your journey, and it's interesting because I've never like I said to you at the start, I've never heard how it how it comes about. I sat there thinking, qualified in sort of 2001, I think you said, or 2000?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:International referee at 2007. Um that doesn't happen by luck, that doesn't happen through, you know. I'm sure you probably I'm um I reckon I know the answer to this, but I'm probably sure you do know the answer. But how many games do you reckon you refereed in your time?
SPEAKER_00:Um well I know how many international games it's it's just uh it's it's just over 220. Um uh I I don't know in the in the National League, uh uh uh it would be um if you if you just assume somehow I don't know 25 to 30 uh uh a season for the last 25 years or so. So it's um um certainly and and one of the things that I learned uh early on, and it was one of the one of the key things that I apply to any anything in terms of uh of of sport and say to young referees, is that you learn something from every game, and what you need to do is those experiences, you need to put them in your kit bag, and when that happens again, you'll draw on that experience and you'll be able to know how to deal with it. You may not get it right the first time, but if you if you if you if you keep it there in the in your mind once once it's happened, then you'll you'll be able to um apply it. And I always used to be able to put take just a small thing each time and say, right, okay, if somebody said to me, Well, do you know you do this, Nick, and I'd rather you didn't, then then just try and say, Okay, what does it feel like to to make that change? Um, and then after a while it becomes natural to do it, it becomes automatic, and therefore you then think of, well, what's the next thing I need to do? Um, and and just build it up piece by piece, brick by brick, um, and until it um until until you aren't uh are um confident in what you're doing. And I would say an international referee, I don't think I was ever confident right from the start to the end, to be quite honest with you. I made I made some pretty pretty dreadful mistakes at times, I think. Um but when I look back on it, you know, and obviously ref referees uh generally are more reflective and harder on themselves than anybody else would be. But um, you know, I was given some amazing opportunities. Um I I can't um uh I can't thank the uh in uh Great Britain winning the 2012 Olympic game as being host nation um because that was a um a pinnacle point. Um never expected anything from that, but said, yeah, I'd you know what? I'd um I'd like to be part of a program of development. Um and and knowing that I was the um less experienced youngest out of all of the uh the the home nation referees that were going for it. Um so I never expected anything from that. Um but I uh as part of that I went to Peru for the 2011 um Youth Europe uh Youth World Championships, women under 18s, um, which was another great experience. Um met some um uh referees that uh are friends that I are still friends now. There's a a referee here in the Philippines, um uh Lu Wen Cheng from China. He was in Peru in that time, and um uh we still talk about things that happened there and you know great memories. Um and and I got that from from that uh that program up to the Olympics and and also got the great opportunity to to referee in France Pro A and in the um in the the Dutch League um for two years. So I did France one year and and and Dutch League for two years. Um and that was just uh amazing. I learned so much of about going over there and doing that. Um and um and then obviously the experience of the Olympics itself of to be involved in a really big tournament.
SPEAKER_03:Um so but so before we dive into the sort of more international things, just a couple of questions on domestic and volleyball in England. Um so do you remember and what I will say before before I ask you these questions is I, you know, me and you, we we've known each other a long time, and you're we're quite close. So I live in Southampton, you're down the road in Bournemouth, so we get you refereeing lots of our games. I'm very lucky to have we're very lucky down to have to have lots of good referees in our area. Um, and you referee every year, you referee, and we see you at Division Three, Division One, Super League, Division Two. Um, and yeah, whenever and we were talking about this with my captain um last week. So whenever we see your name on the on the match official list, we're like, yes, yes, we got Nick, we know we're you know, and it's always it's always a pleasure. And uh and uh we'll come on to the attributes of a good referee, but for me, I always think when you're on you're on the stand, um you never you know we don't hardly notice you're there, which is a compliment. And I know that you believe in that too. So um yeah. And I know you're still active in refereeing in England, so tell us maybe a little bit more about first cup final that you were allocated to or something like that. Tell us a few stories from England, English domestic volleyball.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, so um, so yeah, I was lucky enough to um be uh selected for uh I can't remember whether it was women's cup final, first or or men's cup final. Um I remember we were um in um I I think it was in Sheffield um at the English Institute of Sport. Um and um it was it was a one of those great experiences of of um of I and I suspect it was Docklands versus Mallory uh probably at the time. Um uh and um yeah really really pleased, proud to be to be selected for for for that and be have the confidence of the referee commission to um to say right, you know, um we think you're ready for this, no, just um and and take these games. And um uh I learned a lot from from the coaches, um, certainly learned uh you know from from from Jefferson and from uh Andy Hopper and Ian Legrand and um uh uh Carol Gordon and and and then from the players as well, you know, um just uh just to get those inquiring looks and questions from from Richard DeBell or Alex Berlicos or some or someone just sort of like, you know, um and and being able to um being able to be confident about the decisions I was making in those in those games. And I always had the um uh view that you know you just need to you just need to be there as a facilitator. Um and I hope that comes across because um that's what all referees should you know aim to do. You know, we're not there to you know walk in, I'm the referee. No, we're there to say, right, I'm here to give you guys or girls a game. You've got to you've got to determine the result. Yeah, no, you know, and um I'll be here to apply the rules, but um what I'm not here to do is to look for look for ways in which I can impose on the game. I'm here to stay as far back as possible and I'll intervene if I have to. Um and sometimes that gets misinterpreted. Um, and and obviously um sometimes uh you know I I think smooth refereeing has come really late in my in my career, but I've hopefully I was doing some of the elements of smooth refereeing long before smooth refereeing became a phrase or a thing. Um, because it's it's all about um uh uh allowing the the players to determine the outcome of the game. Um so so I so I was that's what I was doing. Um and and hoping that um that the the players saw that that's what it what what it was all about. And um a couple of uh of the of the National Cup finals, and I think I did, I can't remember, I did about six or seven in a row, um uh in seven years in a row at the as as the cup final referee. Um and and I think the last one I probably did was quite a few years ago now because I don't appoint myself to them. But um I don't know why I don't do that, but uh no, I uh I I I I that the opportunity that I had to do those those number of matches, I just want to see other people get that opportunity. Um and it and it's always something that the the old uh one of the old European referee commission presidents, Jan Rick, who was a fantastic uh teacher of the game for referees, said said to me, you know, sometimes you have to take a risk. And that means you'll never find out if if somebody is good enough unless you put them into a pressured situation. And uh sometimes you'll get it right and sometimes you will get it wrong. Um and but if you but if you keep going back to the to the to your uh always to your trusted uh you know um referee and not give other people the opportunity, um, then you'll never know whether they can do it or not, because they'll never they'll never be in that place to do it.
SPEAKER_03:Um if you if you think about it, you you were given that chance, weren't you? You know, so you know, like you said, you were you were given you were trusted and given that chance by someone, you know, who's now the position you're now in, someone was in that position before appointing you as a referee. Um and you're right.
SPEAKER_00:And and and don't get me wrong, I'm not I'm not suggesting that we that that we we take a risk all the time. No, we don't. Um you know we we put the we have confidence in the referees that we put forward for these um domestic um show showpiece games. Um and um we have confidence that they've got the ability, we've got confidence that they've got the knowledge and the experience to do it. Um I think one of the things that we um have to do as a as a uh a referee group is to um you know allow the the players to understand that this is you know this is how the game is is moving on. Yeah, um and um if you keep you know it it's not about challenging the referee or focusing on the other team's uh mistakes or whatever. Um it's it's it's around you know, let's you know the game just has to just flow, and some of the changes that we'll talk about later, I'm sure, in in terms of the what's coming through this year, um will will absolutely enable that. It's um uh it it's to the benefit of the game.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I I as you were speaking, I was recalling a story, and I'm not I'm pretty sure you were there, but because you know I dabbled in the world of officiating for a while, and I still do, I still get up on the stand myself. Um so I miss it at times, um, and I I enjoy it, so and I think it makes you a better coach as well if you have a good understanding of the rules. Um but I remember being part of the 2012 sort of line judge initial group, and then I stepped away from it due to work and university and things like that. But I had the opportunity to line judge at a it must have been some sort of prep tournament up in Sheffield, and I remember it being around New Year's Eve, New Year's Day time. Um, and there were some international referees there, and I remember I recall the referee, um, one of the line judges waved his flag or waved their flag um because the player was stood off court at the sir at the point of service, but you know, the foot was just off court. It wasn't like obvious, obvious, obvious. And I remember the whole briefing about that around you know, you the referee saying that decision made me look silly, because then I got, you know, I was I was all eyes were on me about why did I make that decision, but I couldn't ignore the person stood in the corner waving the flag. And I think that's always stuck with that story, it's always stuck in my we're there to and as coaches, right? And I've definitely evolved as a coach over the years, and I know you know that, but we're there to let the athletes play, we're there to let the people, whether that be 10 people in a in a hall in England or 10,000 people in a sports stadium in the Philippines, watch watch a game of volleyball. That's what they're there for.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, and and we get that message from Fabio Azevedo all the time. So the the FIVB president is is very clear about that. He would much rather the referees, the referees manage situations without resorting to sanctions, without resorting to um to imposing themselves on the game. There was a uh a classic example um in the match I did um yesterday, whereby um my international referee colleague uh doing the game at one stage had to just you know cool call the the player and said, Look, I don't want to see this happen again on this court. You're a you're a professional player, um, I don't want to see this captain. Please tell your players, and that's the end of it. And one of the other team were going, oh yeah, but this should be a red card, a sanction, and you should do that. And and and she said to them, I have dealt with it. Yeah, I have dealt with it, and and we're moving on. We we this this is now in the past, yeah. And we get on with the game, and and um there's a lot of support, a lot of confidence given by the the the um uh the board of of the FIVB that um that it's about the game and about presenting the game and not about looking for opportunities. So if the the referees deal with it in a certain way, as long as they're clear about how they deal with these situations, get on with the game. You know, the play the the players are there to uh to provide entertainment, then not and the fans are not there to see you know the match uh you know disintegrate because of sanctions or um or or um over shall we say um uh over application of the rules of game, looking for faults and trying to find things to talk about. Um and it's um there there was a very there was a great situation with the the great Polish referee uh Wojciech Marasec in an earlier match, and I think um it was uh a very tight last pull phase game. Um uh and I I I think it was Argentina, but I'm not sure. Um he called the two captains to to him and he said, no, look, um, you are professionals, you are professional teams, and we want to see volleyball, so please let's uh let's play volleyball and get on with get on with the game and stop any of these little petty squabbles and things that might be starting. Um and uh the commentator said um it was good to hear that, but I'm not really sure that's gonna have any effect on the two teams. But but it's a sort of way it's the sort of it's it's a sort of way of of of of trying to control it, recognizing there might be a problem. Getting the guys together and saying, look, come on, you know, play volleyball. You know, you that's where your skills are what people want to see, not not you pointing fingers through the net and and and all of that. So, you know, and we get a lot of confidence from the from the the top of FOVB that that's what they want to see. They want to see us deal with the situations, move on and get the game flowing and get people playing in the sport.
SPEAKER_03:And that's and that's so common, I think, in in um all sports, right, from an officiating perspective. You know, I'm uh a an avid football fan and I will go down and watch my local uh my local club that play in the sort of two divisions below the conference and you go down there and you see some referees that keep the cards in the pocket and they have a good game and you know nothing nothing happens and then you get some some officials that you you see and they pull out a yellow card or within the first four minutes and you just think oh no this is gonna be carnage yeah absolutely do you recall um I don't know if you know this I'm putting you on the spot here but do you know how many cards you gave out at an international level international level um can you can I recall uh a couple of yellows I don't remember a red I I do remember a red portugal um portugal against the Netherlands um uh world league group two finals in two 2016 I gave a red I gave my given two reds in that game actually because a little bit fractious um but but not many not many um a handful and and I and I suspect in the um in the National League I haven't given out many either um I've given out quite a few delays delay warnings but I don't think but delay penalty I don't remember giving delay warnings is one one of the things I I tend to be a bit bit stricter on but um uh typically but that goes back to your your whole ethos of letting the game play and if a team's taken too long to play or if they're not coming out from a timeout or quick enough then you know you can see why you you give those out yeah it it's about um okay first time first couple of times like come on guys speed speed it up but um if they're not listening to you and thinking we'll just keep going until Nick loses his loses his uh patience then um at some point I'm gonna get frustrated and go right well uh you you're gonna have to deal with it this way and I think sometimes that happens with player behaviour as well is I'd I'd much rather sort of like give the couple of toots and go now look come on and and the player to say okay I understand it I've now come to the point where I need to stop um and okay if things if things do boil over from then then okay yeah a warning is is is appropriate but um as I say I I don't I don't remember too many.
SPEAKER_00:I do remember one game that I did quite some years back now was which was Southampton and um I can I was Southampton Wessex so it must have been the local derby um and it was a it was a particularly uh entertaining fixture that that went to five sets I think I seem to remember but um yeah I did I did hand out um I think three red cards and a couple of yellows and nick nick nick nick let's move on yeah yeah yeah yeah I can't think who that would those those would have been two but but it's but it's rare it's so rare I I you know I I can go I can go months without without resorting or needing them. It's just that's the that's the sign of a good official right and I think as again my my take on it and my opinion on it is you're there to let the game flow but you're also there to educate sometimes and I know you know yeah you absolutely do that in your role you will often come down and say something to me and I'll go oh I didn't know that or you know I've seen you at national finals weekends and um opening weekends you know walking around and conversing with people and educating them because actually if people don't know and they're making a mistake they don't know or they've got a rule slight or the interpretation of a rule right and you let them know as a coach I'm grateful for that not you know so yeah yeah there's no point there's no point I've I've always thought this and you know and I see it within junior competitions as well when I go to a junior competition you know okay the players are learning you know they they they might not always remember which players they're in rotation with yeah so um so so there's no point in just continuing to sort of pick them up and say well you're out of position it's much easier to say hey coach your opposites yeah in the wrong place move them and and uh or or to the player themselves you know when we get to um to highest down to tell the player hey play you're moving too soon player you can't stand there move you know um because it makes you know who who wants to wants to go and watch a game whereby the ball's hit by the server and suddenly play stops and somebody goes it points at a player nobody's got any clue what actually happened who's watching unless they're watching it really intently um and all that's happened is play stopped almost immediately another point's gone on the score and we get another service and you go well I didn't really come to watch a one hit of a ball and and things so we're we're trying to sort of educate the the the uh the game now to say well look you know we're relaxing a lot of these petty issues that this is part of smooth refereeing this is around removing those things that stop play that make it more intermittent you know allow the rallies to develop because we know we've got a problem in men's volleyball we don't get enough rallies it it's we well there's either too much pressure on the server um to to jump serve or put power on a serve and therefore we get a lot of balls into the net we get a lot of balls out the back of the court we don't get rallies um so a lot of these things are to try and improve that to at least get a rally going and then you've got the chance of having some spectacular volleyball um and and sometimes I think that you know in in in the in the men's game that's obviously a key consideration in in the women's game you get some fantastic rallies um but particularly when you've got very good defensive teams you might not be great attacking teams but they're really good defensive teams you know you only have to look at Thailand Japan um those sorts of teams that you know you can spend all day battering the ball at them and it just keeps coming back yeah and that's exciting volleyball that's what people want to see you know um and and we saw it in this world championships in the men's it Korea yeah Korea um had a had a libero that was just remarkable the smallest guy um maybe even the smallest guy in the tournament I don't know but um but but he was just everywhere keeping this ball going and the only way you could get round Korea was was don't play it anywhere near the Libero yeah and and and it was you know they they played a five uh a three set match in the in the group phase and I said afterwards I did it as challenge and I said afterwards you know what that was a really good game to watch yeah it was really exciting you know three sets and and that's what you want to see yeah and that's what we're trying to trying to achieve so so before we move on to some of the things you talked about then about some of the rule changes let's just finish the conversation uh around international refereeing so you refereed I think you said earlier over 200 international games um between 2007 and 2023 so perhaps share with us you know a particularly you know have you got a game that you always sort of remember for for very for whatever reason has there been a sort of highlight or a tournament yeah I think I think so um I remember uh vividly a game I think it was in 2019 in VNL which was uh USA uh versus Japan women um and it was probably the first time that I'd uh well I think I I've refereed USA a couple of times since then but that was one of the first times I refereed USA women um and uh yeah I I I think I I the game was really good it was a I think it was four sets it was a good game and um I got uh good good responses afterwards about it and I think that that that really sort of came home to me that you know sometimes when you get these games whilst you're nervous to start with and I'm always nervous to start with no matter whether it's division three or whether it's um whether it was an international match the first three points I I always used to think that if I wasn't nervous then I was going to miss something and I wasn't going to um I wasn't going to be in the game straight away um I think if you go up there and go do you know what this is uh this is an old hat I can do this with my eyes shut type type approach you're gonna miss something your your concentration will be off things you know it's always as you know from as a coach you know it's always those games where when suddenly out of nowhere something happens or the whole thing breaks down and it and it's normally because concentration levels if you you just try to become too familiar with what's going on and too oh this is easy and then suddenly you're not picking up the cues from the players you're not picking up how the game's going you're flowing up and down with the game and it's those things that that that I find that that as soon as I recognise that's happening to me I go you've got to switch back on because that's not fair on the players um and you've got to uh you've got to do do your best and and and be really on it throughout the whole match and I think that though games like that game between USA and Japan what did helped me a lot um there's there's other games which I didn't do quite so well in I did a game between Serbia um and uh Iran I think it was in in Serbia um no Bulgaria it was in Bulgaria um and I didn't have a great great game but we got to the end of it and I learned learned a lot but the next time I came across the the coach of Iran he was actually coach for um coach for Serbia I think it's the guy from Montenegro but I'm not quite certain um and um I was really nervous before it because I thought okay the last time you saw me coach was you know okay I wasn't I wasn't great um and um the the next time I saw him um I had a good game uh and he was he was he was pleased with what we did so you know that those are the things that actually stick in my mind of thinking well okay I learned from that game and and was able to turn it into a into a um a a follow-up match so um yeah there are there are things and there's other things I'd like to obviously matches I'd like to forget of course I think that's I think that's always on but but sometimes you don't realise until afterwards what what um what what who who's been involved i in the match so you know um refereeing uh matches with for example um you know the great russian uh coach uh the uh the the the olympic um obviously gold gold medal winning winning coach you know um that that when you you do games and you go somewhere and he recognises you and you just go okay so he's remembered me you know and and and to have that opportunity of of um of seeing seeing some some of these um some of these coaches and players and and realizing well you know actual fact you know in um uh Rio I did a game between Brazil and Qatar and uh it was one of you know Bruno was a right at the end of his career but I'd never refereed Brazil men before um and I was again quite nervous before I before the match um thinking well how am I going to deal with Brazil because you know these guys are superstars you know and you've got a you've got a setter here who's an absolute world number world best um and the thing that came home to me from from that match is that they're the same as every other player yeah um as long as you as long as you treat them right you you're not overly overly imposing on the game but also it's just little things at that level that that make a difference to them. You know they'll they'll get very annoyed at something which you think well that's that's really minor but they get very annoyed about it because it's little things like that that make the difference between winning and losing. And if you're really concentrating on the game and you pick them up then you get their respect because they like because they say okay well this referee knows exactly what how to keep this game going. And I think that what what sets apart the really top referees from all the others is that they're able to do that and they're able to to know when to when to just step a bit back from the game and just let it go. And then they know when to step in and say then look you know and and and make their point and that makes sets them apart and that's what's great as being an international being in this international forum.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah and listening to you like you know I'm not surprised you've got to where you've got to in referee because of that growth mindset that you have and I talk about this all the time around like and even with the players now like you know you learn more from when you lose a match as a coach right you learn more from when you lose and um you can't go and win every match all the time and actually you need to you need to lose because it teaches you something and like you're saying you you have a bad game but actually you learn more from that and as long as you learn from it and grow and develop that's all that's what from my perspective that's what makes you a high performer whether that be a player a coach official um in any sport if you've got a good growth mindset and you can take things and go do you know what that didn't go quite right. I didn't learn something like here um I you you'll know where I'm going with this but we we were in division two last year and we had one game that really didn't go to plan at all um it really didn't go to plan at all we were on to win the league and then we lost to bottom of the league who hadn't lost who hadn't won a game yet and we lost 3-0 um and again lack of focus lack of you know and they turned that and I remember thinking do you know what we need to this is a a a line in the sun moment we need to learn from this event and move forward and we did we did but I think my coaching years ago would have been that would have destroyed it and I would have gone into this state yes so yeah you have to as an official you have to be and it moves us on to this next part of the the conversation the last part of the conversation really about your role as the um officials working group lead um now there's been and we'll we've we've only got 15 minutes left left Nick so we'll have to speak like there's been some some big changes to the game um your role and I know you're very active in this is to educate and not you know coaches and um officials these new changes so I'm gonna hand over to you and maybe tell us where do they come from what's the point of the changes and give us a few quick bullet points about each of the changes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah so so the philosophy of the game at the uh the the highest level from um is a is around removing the um unnecessary um parts of the game where where you can you can impose on the game for for no real reason you know what what why do we um why do we get worked up about where people stand why do we get worked up about um uh uh whether a Libro for example replaces the the the player on the side of the court or whether they walk out the back of the court or accidentally through through somewhere else so so we we have these little petty things around the the game that we're just trying to to to to remove and say well you know um let's just allow things let's allow the players to as long as we've got the the the six on the on the court and they're playing um we're not going to start talking to them about why are you standing there why didn't you change your position here or or whatever and start picking up oh you need to do this you need to do that we're not there for that you know what we're there for is to is to allow the games to develop and allow to to uh apply the rules at the at the most appropriate time to apply them not not abdicate our responsibility as referees it's about um knowing when to apply rules and when not to apply rules um and I think some of the rule changes that we've had not so much the rule changes but the rule interpretations are all around that you know as we we started two years ago uh uh within volleyball engine about talking about smooth refereeing we started with with trying to make a small change to to the screen to because this is a this a discussion that referees have had with players for years um rarely called fault everyone's got an opinion on it um so we we at FIVB level and at local level we took a very small change to the guidelines and said right we're gonna implement this and we're gonna tell players get your hands down stop all of this stuff that we used to have with players standing like this and all of that um and see if we can make a real change and within a short period of time players stop doing it um and then you find that the the rule changes slightly again and says you know well we're gonna stop you bunching now at the front of the court um and in order to help that we're gonna tell you you can stand where you like um so therefore you don't have to stand next to someone because there's no crossing anymore because in those points where you have to cross you can actually stand there at the point of service um and therefore you don't need that and hopefully from all of this we'll stop talking about the screen yeah and and that will take out one point whereby players or or or captains are talking to referees about something that really has no consequence on on the match itself. It's just a distraction.
SPEAKER_03:And I'll just chuck in on that one Nick I think specifically around that rule change is for talking domestically and in England it will help consistency because that's all you want as a coach right is you want to go up and down the country and play teams home in a way and make sure you get people with the same interpretation of the rule. You don't want to go you know up to Newcastle on a on a Saturday and have a referee who interprets it one way. And it is like that the old rule about screening is very subjective and it's open to a lot of interpretation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and and I think that um one of the key key parts of of all of this is is to make it fairer and and if you remember that the whole process of removing this from the game is actually to give the reception a better opportunity to control the service which means that you've got the start of a rally and it's all about getting a rally you know um and and therefore I I think that you know if we if we really focus on that it's about the playing consequence that's what we're trying to get from this and and teams um uh one of the the step-ons from that is this this interpretation of change of of the receiving teams the receiving team has to be in position at the at uh in under the rules at the service hit but we've relaxed that to the bull toss yeah now that's that's not to say that we now expect teams to take advantage uh prior to the bull toss but it gives them that opportunity but one thing it has allowed is because the teams are moving at the bull tossing the serving teams are now thinking well if I curve quicker they've got less chance to move one of the things that has come from from that is that the float serve is now more important again because it it means that the receiving team can't move as quickly the ball serve very quickly they get less time to move so so therefore that's that's a slight change which is which may develop and and therefore it puts less pressure on the serve so therefore somebody who's not a great jump server can then say well I I can I can float serve and in a men's game what used to happen is obviously your float serve the first ball was overhand finger pass straight to the setter ball was on the floor before you knew where it had gone and nobody nobody could react.
SPEAKER_03:Now it's it's a case of well you might put the receiving team under a slight bit of pressure you can push them further back into court you can get more um more purchase on it on it and therefore you can set your defence up you might get a rally heaven forbid we might get some rallies um and I noticed um and I noticed in some of the highlights that uh and I'm sure it's many of the teams I haven't kept an an eye on it as close as obviously you're there so um I noticed that some of the teams on on those rotations I'm thinking about the rotation where setters at one and the opposite's at four um I I noticed that now if they're if the if they happen to be up against a jumps topspin server who's got a you know high toss ball toss then they can actually switch the opposite and the four player back to where they prefer hitting you know so I and I've I've picked up on those things it's already starting to make me think of oh we could do that you know and it's and actually as a from a coaching perspective it's actually quite nice to have to think about something new.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah the game's slightly changing the tactics are uh slightly changing yeah so so with with the with the serving team you know with the serving team to stand anywhere you like the key things that we've seen so far when the setter is serving the the opposite and the outside can switch in the front row so they're actually the opposite way around to where they would be so normally your you know if your your your setter is serving you you've generally got the opposite uh at two and your outside and your sorry the opposite the outside is at two and the opposite's at four but they can stand the other way around now so they don't have to move move about similarly when the um when the uh setter is at three and and the middle is at two those two can switch so the the setter can be at two to start with they don't have to move and the middle is then able to start the start the defense. So we've seen some little things and those are the two key things that we've seen in terms of the serving team's positions. Obviously those players have got to be clever because they've got to know where they are in the rotational order when they're in reception and that's a challenge for you coaches.
SPEAKER_03:That was my point is I think we I think we might start seeing some more questions for the scoring table about who's who's serving next yes initially we initially we will and and the referees have got to understand that okay we're not going to expect the the team to be asking every time because it that's you know you we we you know they're not learning themselves if they're just relying on somebody else but there's going to be times when they they they forget they have to ask okay well let them you know it's just about you know the benefits of of the change are outweighing you know there's little in little things and after after a time they'll be fine that they'll remember that they'll be fine with it it just becomes it'll become natural um the other the the other one um that that uh we've seen into obviously interpretation is the relaxation on the double contact of an internal pass yeah and um this is not to allow put players that can't overhand the finger pass to to suddenly go do you know what I'm gonna be a setter and anything goes sort of thing because obviously if you if you don't if you don't contact the ball cleaner you'll never set up an attack properly and therefore your team will never um will never benefit from it so there's so it's not about relaxation of skills but what it does do is it removes a whole piece of subjectiveness from the game the number of conversations between players and referees about well what about their handling ref what about that double contact why didn't you call this why didn't you call that um all of that pretty much now we can we can sweep apart aside um and we won't see these unnecessary discussions and and and chats within a game and and hopefully the teams will benefit will will understand that and benefit from that I think early in the season we probably will see some referees who forget yeah um and and we'll whistle stuff and we just have to go okay yeah let's do that again you know um and and and understand that that might that might happen um but in general it's for the benefit of the game uh the coaches like it yeah um it cuts down a lot of the a lot of the chatter and it allows teams to um to develop play when before the referee would be you know you get a two in the middle of a rally you think well I was enjoying that rally and until the referee um intervened for something that you know quite frankly probably wasn't a double contact because all we see is a spinning ball or a sound and if you if you watch it when you slow these plays down and these contacts down very few of them actually are double contacts or really clear double contacts so I think it it's gonna help in that regard in the game and and there's a bit of education to be done from the referees and and and to the referees so I hope that we'll start the season with that you know not so imposing on on these things we'll just we'll just a bit of education and I was gonna say Nick um I said two things really I I watched a shield match uh a couple of weeks ago and I purposely just went down to watch it to see how the rules were in in interpreted and actually I thought spot on the referee was just educating the players as little toots of the whistle to sort of say no no that's not quite right that's not quite right a few discussions about it after the first set everybody was fine so it sort of made me realize it's not you know it's not it's not a big thing really we just need to educate people. Oh and then and then um my second point then because I'm conscious of our time is yeah if if you're a referee in England or if you're a coach in England uh and you want to find out more what you know I know there's been some webinars and there's been some what what's your advice to anybody who wants to find out more about these rule changes?
SPEAKER_00:So we've got the we've we've got the webinars um two lengthy PowerPoint presentations unfortunately um but we've got the webinars recorded they're available on the um volleyball england learning site um and um obviously anybody can send me queries if they don't if for for clarification we we've set up a a a little faq on on game situations to say you know this is the situation how would you apply the the the rule so hopefully that's going out this week um and it can go out to all the referees and the coaches and and anybody really um and again be available to everyone but also you can just contact me and and and ask that question or any senior referee and hopefully that they'll all be able to to to help so so get let's let's have the feedback on it and let's see how it's going um and and the the last thing I wanted to kind of touch on in terms of rules was that as a challenge as a challenge referee there are some things that I see from from the challenge which have changed the way in which I think we referee certain games um we find um that uh in challenge that um balls that hit the net band that normally we would expect four hits you get this four four four shell coming up from the players things like that um if there's a block anywhere near for the most part the balls touch the block yeah so referees tend not to whistle it just let play develop uh unless it's absolutely obvious that it was that it was four um we've seen that um the uh the the old wipe off the you know remember where you used to see it off the side and the and the players used to go yeah that's ball touched well challenge has proven for the most part the player that started the wipe off is the last touch and therefore it's out um so therefore in in actual fact if you've watched the men's world championships you'll have seen uh hardly any of them yeah so few there might have been one or two because they just don't do it anymore because they've given up because they know they're gonna be the one at fault so that's that's an interesting change uh floor touches and pancakes unless the ball hits your the top of your hand here if it hits your fingers it's gonna be ball in yeah so therefore uh a lot of those uh a lot of those uh teaches the referees slightly differently about the game and about what's happening so I think that there is lots of um lots of different things that that are that are uh happening that that challenge is teaching us a bit like drs has done in cricket it's teach taught umpires about what the way ball balls move and how they go after the after the bat I think challenge in volleyball is also educating coaches and players as to what is likely to have happened and what hasn't um and I think that's for the better of the game.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah absolutely so you heard that right from Nick so if you need more information about these rule changes head over to volleyball England's learning um page on the volleyball england website and you'll find those um resources there or reach out to any uh any of your senior referees in the country or I'm sure Nick will be happy to answer any queries to the uh the the um working group so Nick we've been chatting for 59 minutes yeah I think it has gone very quickly it always goes quickly has all these grand ideas and all these questions but um it's just a conversation and that's why I love it.
SPEAKER_00:So look we're gonna we're gonna wrap up the conversation there it's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you and hear more about your stories and your experience um I'll give you just 30 seconds in one line to say if you've got if if you're thinking about refereeing what would your advice be give it a go get get get yourself a whistle have a go um get a rule book have a quick have a quick flick through um and get up on the stand and and and give it a go and don't be afraid to to to do that um and I'm sure that all of the players will be really just thankful they have a referee um and uh if you enjoy it come along to a course you know you never know where it might lead to me it's led to me all over the world so uh and I never expected that in 2001.
SPEAKER_03:So uh when you'd only ever flow when you've never flown and you've flown to Guernsey or Jersey, there we go. Yeah, yeah. Where did it where's it gonna lead? Yeah. So um, Nick, do this with every guest, just wrap up the conversation. A quick, quick, silly game of this or that. Um, some quickfire questions. Uh some are volleyball related, some are not. So here we go. I know some of the answers to these already from our conversation. Um, so first question. Uh stickler for the rules or game flow manager type referee? Game flow manager. Uh there we go. If you could have a superpower, would you choose invisibility or the ability to time travel?
SPEAKER_00:Oh uh probably time travel.
SPEAKER_03:Uh love or hate the new rules. Love the new rules. Pizza or curry? Curry.
SPEAKER_00:Uh long rally or a clean ace? Uh long rally, but I like aces as well now and again.
SPEAKER_03:Uh what's harder to spot as a referee? A net touch or uh fault on a back row attack? Uh back row attack. And finally, this is I don't know how this is gonna go for a referee, but I ask that every guest, so you're no different. Um, love to win or hate to lose. Um I'll just leave it there and maybe you can ponder on it because it's yeah, that's a that's a difficult question for an official. They they both have merits. Yeah. Well, let me go. I'll I'll let you off, Nick. You can be my first guest who doesn't answer. That's fine. So look, um, I'm sure I'm sure we'll see you, I'll see you I'm sure throughout the season. Um uh you're like I said, a really a really great guy. If you see Nick around, and you will see Nick around across the country in sports halls and the opening weekend and final fours and things like that, then go and speak to Nick. He's a top guy, and as you've heard from him tonight, always up to always up for discussing and asking questions and will always help. That's my experience anyway, and I know others absolutely echo that. So, Nick, from all of us within the volleyball community, thank you for being, you know, welcome. Thank you for getting up at three o'clock in the morning to talk to me. Um, and I hope you have uh a fantastic rest of the the championships out in television. Awesome. So that was Nick Heckford on the Dig in Deeper show. And remember, guys, whatever you're doing, keep playing, keep supporting, but more importantly, keep that volleyball spirit alive. I'm Nick Wiltshire, the host of That Volleyball Guy. Thank you for listening.
SPEAKER_02:That volleyball guy.
